UK Proposing to ban sale of internal combustion engines by 2040

[Bram]

Is this a sign of things to come.


http://youtu.be/lt1gXu3xe2I

[TJ]

Way things are going probably won't be using them by 2040 anyhow.

[strubaru]

I'm sure there will be a huge market for brushless conversions by then, might be something worth looking into Bramski

[TheChad]

Where I'm living now (Oslo) the green party is pushing to ban all IC engine cars in the city by 2020.
They're already lightyears ahead over here, mostly because distances are shorter and the country is rich AF.

You get free parking with free charging in some of the best spots in town if you're in an electric car, you can use the bus lanes and fly past traffic if you have a passenger in an electric car, there's almost no tax on electric cars. The result is every pingpingpingping drives a Tesla. There're much more affordable options too, like the leaf etc, they're great!

[TJ]

Where I'm living now (Oslo) the green party is pushing to ban all IC engine cars in the city by 2020.
They're already lightyears ahead over here, mostly because distances are shorter and the country is rich AF.

You get free parking with free charging in some of the best spots in town if you're in an electric car, you can use the bus lanes and fly past traffic if you have a passenger in an electric car, there's almost no tax on electric cars. The result is every pingpingpingping drives a Tesla. There're much more affordable options too, like the leaf etc, they're great!

Can you post some pics of the typical type of passenger you might have?

Asking for a friend @joe

[Buckets]

Irrespective of banning them the market is moving towards electrification. For a daily I see this as awesome, I would honestly consider buying a Tesla or similar for daily commute use if I had the need for a commuter car then have the hydrocarbon burning toys there ready and waiting for when you want something different / something fun.

People still use and still make horse drawn carriages, still love steam trains and tip shit tonnes of cash in to keep them going; people still go on cruise ships to places even though those modes of transportation rendered mostly irrelevant around 100yr's ago. I think it means that for the average punter a hydrocarbon burning car will not be a fixture in their life, but for enthusiasts like "us" there will continue to be a a niche market and cult following for the noisy, smelly wonderful polar bear killing toys we love.

[TheChad]

So you're not going to EV swap your ricecooker just yet?

[shifted]

keen for an electric R1 (a la Mission RS style, seemed to be a great concept/prototype).

always wondered what would happen to our cars of yester-year... butcher them and convert? buy petrol from some science lab to keep them going?

[Buckets]

So you're not going to EV swap your ricecooker just yet?

Not a fucking chance in hell. For the mere suggestion of such a bullshit idea I'm going to make a point of waking it up this break and make some clouds of premixed pollution.

I give no fucks for the environment, I don't care about the world I leave behind when I die. I'll be fucking dead so not my problem! I l just like the Tesla for it's Autopilot feature which can ferry me places without me needing to pay attention to fuck all, it's basically an Uber but without the dramas of waiting for it to arrive then having to try and be polite to the driver for 10 minutes.

[Damo 69]

So you're not going to EV swap your ricecooker just yet?

LFXX Kers System is keeping the LF Cash cannon stocked

[Evman]

The only thing holding EVs back is battery tech. When you think about how much money gets thrown at developing a new engine, let alone engine and gearbox, with a handful of car companies making a real push in the R&D side of things battery tech will easily leapfrog itself tenfold. Musk has already shown what can be done with proper investment and as such has shown that a lot of the supposed barriers that were preventing electrification were simply imaginary.

If Telsa had tried to enter the market 15 years ago it'd have been a spectacular failure, but as it stands the planets are aligning and now everyone else is playing catch-up (and probably negotiating some very lucrative battery purchasing plans from Musk while they're at it...)

[hako]

Article I read today said petrol (spark ignition) engines.

Not internal combustion engines completely.

[SSICK]

Mad Max.

Bring it.

[mr_rotary]

Still waiting for a affordable EV sports car.
Other than the original Tesla Roadster, nothing else out there other than Prius speed rubbish.
Range does not bother me as I'm only a few minutes from work and the city ;)

On a side note, Tesla will be opening a Perth branch shortly.

[DRKWRX]

I think it wont be long till the other big car manufacturers have ev cars that are as good or better than the teslas and cheaper.

[Brockas]

"Yes, this S13 catback fits your Tesla."


Has a nice ring to it.

[Sebdullah]

"Yes, this S13 catback fits your Tesla."


Has a nice ring to it.

Gonna start stocking up on Everleady batteries issit?

[huggy_b]

I remember watching Beyond 2000 on my old school 51" CRT TV and they said I'd be in a hover car by now. They also mentioned really fast low orbit space flights across the planet, shit like Australia to London in an hour.


I have none of this cool shit and they want to take my fuel driven engines?
NOT ON MY WATCH TREE HUGGERS.

[S85FI]

Article I read today said petrol (spark ignition) engines.

Not internal combustion engines completely.

Internal or external combustion engines are your choice.

Unless its steam powered any thing else is internal...diesel/spark etc.

[hako]

Internal or external combustion engines are your choice.

Unless its steam powered any thing else is internal...diesel/spark etc.

Wat? I said only spark ignition engines were banned (in the information I read). I'm aware that there are many more IC engines, that was my point.

[Bram]

If anything, if they were only gonna do a partial ban, it would make more sense to ban diesel over petrol.


Wat? I said only spark ignition engines were banned (in the information I read). I'm aware that there are many more IC engines, that was my point.

[mr top hat]

Im in London ATM, they're already pushing Diesel hybrid busses and fully electric busses.
totally makes sense to be getting rid of IC engines here, a electric car is perfect for these roads.

when i get back to AUS im planning on buying a electric Motorbike http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/au/
they have nearly the same range as a normal sports bike and they were about $15K last time i checked.
would be a perfect daily, i think they do like 0-100 in 3 seconds

[S85FI]

If anything, if they were only gonna do a partial ban, it would make more sense to ban diesel over petrol.

Once people in a few years see what an add blue tank is going to cost to refil, 2nd hand diesel cars wont be worth squat.

[dmanvan]

just look at what over regulation has done to LMP1 ... audi goneski ......... porsche now goneski at end of this year..... DTM Mercedes also goneski..... ALL into formula E......

they are each a nail in coffin of real motorsport sadly as they look to fast-tracking elect power for race/road ...

http://www.speedcafe.com/2017/07/28/porsche-quits-wec-formula-e/

"Michael Steiner, the Porsche board member in charge of motorsport as research and development boss, said: “Entering FE and achieving success in this category are the logical outcomes of our Mission E road car program.
“The growing freedom for in-house technology developments makes FE attractive to us.
“For us, FE is the ultimate competitive environment for driving forward the development of high performance vehicles in areas such as environmental friendliness, efficiency and sustainability.”"

...

[Madhav]

The NextEV Nio EP9 is an EV and it currently holds the Nürburgring record at 6:45.90


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcepG9Twa_8

If this is a sign of what is to come then bring it on.

[Sebdullah]

it'll probably be a hell of a lot longer before we get anything implemented here, cant exactly picture fast charging stations littering the nullabor

[-Luke-]

Car roof mounted solar panels for interstate long distance charge top ups Bro. CRMSPFILDCTU for short.

[DanWA]

it'll probably be a hell of a lot longer before we get anything implemented here, cant exactly picture fast charging stations littering the nullabor

It would happen eventually when it became viable/profitable

[Sebdullah]

It would happen eventually when it became viable/profitable

and as with everything will end up privatized & shit, NBN spec

[dmanvan]

reckon the US will keep guzlin gas while it is available.. for a country vast and sparse like Australia though currently even places that are well less than a days drive like gero and albany are out of range for elect, esp if you try taking your tesla to RW towing your racecar.... "do you even tow bro"

:D

what about electric trucks trying to transport goods to say Kal, karratha or broome that is going to need some serious charging infrastructure ..

although I cant wait to electrify my AU when the tech and batteries get cheap enough or my engine dies (whatever comes first ....)

[Sebdullah]

just needs the bumper car method, coat hanger + overhead wires, GAME ON

[mr_rotary]

"do you even tow bro"
Yes, yes I do...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a27533/this-electric-truck-is-the-future-of-off-roading/

[S85FI]

From that article:

60 or 100 kWh battery pack, giving the truck either 120 or 200 miles of range


I wanna know what the range is under load?
Will the car die like a cordless lithium battery drill?
Will it be like a windows computer when 25% power left goes to 7% because all axles are driving and I'm half way up a 200m incline?
How long will it take to charge using my Supercheap auto solar charger?

[dmanvan]

^^ lol beat me to it... exactly right, 120mil (192km....) would definitely not be fully loaded and towing at 100km/h..... would prob be lucky to get 140 km if trying that meaning going to need to leave the weekend before racewars to get their for the race in 2020...:D

and the difference in price between the 60kwh and 100 is prob going to be 50K......+

[S85FI]

The list goes on for electric cars and while lot more for 4x4.
Military tried it time and time. Why? Imagine the stealth.... but dropped the r and d as it just not even close.

I think this company has a great idea but its just not close to economical for the next 50 odd years and the company will go broke because there is no return on investment for units sold. Unless of course we are willing to shell out 1mil for a 4x4 with a zillion unit sales per year.

[TheChad]

reckon the US will keep guzlin gas while it is available.. for a country vast and sparse like Australia though currently even places that are well less than a days drive like gero and albany are out of range for elect,

AFAIK they now have a couple of quick charge spots down the coast so you could actually go to and from Albany, or near enough. It's definitely not ideal, nor as accessible or fast as a splash and dash. But I'd pretty OK with getting to pound a couple of pies at the dunsborough bakery while a tesla I was driving took 30min to charge up.
It will happen, just not at the speed the countries like more progressive European countries are doing it. Also look at China and their electric bikes etc. Those motherfuckers will be decades in front of us while we're still buried in the sand back burning coal while all of the available solar, wind and thermal energy remains ignored.
I'm actually really disappointed in our lack of foresight on this. We are going to lose out big time in the long run.

China is the fastest growing green tech, they've seen the value and they will rule the world. Another example, here in Norway the division of the state oil company that looks into renewable would still likely be in the top 10 companies, in terms of size, in Scandinavia. Meanwhile we're doing SFA in Australia where we have some of the best opportunities.
Sure, eventually we'll be able to buy the tech and live using it, but we won't be contributing shit to the economy in doing so.

[S85FI]

No disagreement to your post but people need to understand population drives these things.
Have a look Australia for population density per sq km. Its pretty easy to see why China does what it does and why Singapore does what it does under ground.

We simply can't afford it.

[disc0-dan]

https://goo.gl/images/8TU5yS

[dmanvan]

https://goo.gl/images/8TU5yS img. not work for me


https://tstoaddicts.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/615.jpg

[TheChad]

No disagreement to your post but people need to understand population drives these things.
Have a look Australia for population density per sq km. Its pretty easy to see why China does what it does and why Singapore does what it does under ground.

I totally get where you're coming from, but that's a bullshit excuse. We're just happy to sit on our hands and wait. At least we'll still be rich enough to adopt the technologies when they get better.
Over the entire country? sure. But the major cities, where the average person does 99% of their kms, there's a fair amount of density. Not Shanghai, Tokyo or Mexico city levels of dense, but more than dense enough to support such a network.

[Evman]

Over the entire country? sure. But the major cities, where the average person does 99% of their kms, there's a fair amount of density. Not Shanghai, Tokyo or Mexico city levels of dense, but more than dense enough to support such a network.

Not to mention the fact that despite huge populations, the rate of car ownership is next to nothing in cities like that.

[Sebdullah]

^ key word in your post is dense.... like the pingpingpingpings who decide when/how to implement anything

[S85FI]

I totally get where you're coming from, but that's a bullshit excuse. We're just happy to sit on our hands and wait. At least we'll still be rich enough to adopt the technologies when they get better.
Over the entire country? sure. But the major cities, where the average person does 99% of their kms, there's a fair amount of density. Not Shanghai, Tokyo or Mexico city levels of dense, but more than dense enough to support such a network.

How do you justify such bull shit excuse in Australia? Genuine question?
We are still building single unit dwellings and aren't even within a 50 year time line to go up....

[TheChad]

How do you justify such bull shit excuse in Australia? Genuine question?
We are still building single unit dwellings and aren't even within a 50 year time line to go up....

I already explained above. Australia is massive, but most city people aren't driving more than 100km a day, nor leaving "metro" areas. With the right infrastructure electric cars could be adopted much faster.

[shifted]

I'd happily go electric, I travel 16km a day unless I go to a site visit. The majority of office workers in the city would probably be similar, least in my field.

[Evman]

I already explained above. Australia is massive, but most city people aren't driving more than 100km a day, nor leaving "metro" areas. With the right infrastructure electric cars could be adopted much faster.

I grew up on a farm in Corrigin and Mum worked at the school so we drove to and from town every day. Even that was a 40km round trip + around town travel. Corrigin to Perth is ~200km. An electric car wouldn't be a problem even for most country people.

[Sebdullah]

I grew up on a farm in Corrigin and Mum worked at the school so we drove to and from town every day. Even that was a 40km round trip + around town travel. Corrigin to Perth is ~200km. An electric car wouldn't be a problem even for most country people.

counter arguil, when I was kid Mum & I had to do the drive from Kambalda to Perth every few months, (6-700kms) this would effectively turn a 6-7 hour drive into a 2 day mission coz fuck driving open country roads at night

[Evman]

No car is ever going to suit every situation. Alternatively, with a Telsa Supercharger network, plug it in half way for an hour and you're back at full charge and can do the rest of the trip.

[Bram]

Remember the EV tech we are seeing is still relatively young. It can be optimised from here. Charge times and range and price and everything else can only get better.

Think of what ICE were in thier infancy.

[Evman]

The shakeup of the automotive industry really is going to be huge.


Californian car maker made the bold claim that the new model will require servicing… almost never.

...While Musk didn’t qualify his statement, we imagine that things like battery coolant, wiper fluids, tyres and brakes – as consumables – would require regular servicing and replacement.

Plus the Model 3 has a four year vehicle and eight year battery warranty, which I think will put a lot of concerns about battery life to rest. I would expect that the savings gained from fewer/cheaper servicing would only partially offset the cost of a replacement battery pack though (but that'll keep getting cheaper). An interesting point that I saw about the problem of the inherent fluctuations from renewable energy sources on the grid was that with widespread EVs plugged into the network, they would act as the shock absorber needed to protect the system from said fluctuations.

[waxdass]

ON the Tesla topic....

by Chris Becker

Well here it is! An electric car for the masses. The Tesla Model 3 was launched this week in the US, heralding a new era in electric vehicles. Big usable range, low life-of-vehicle cost that makes it cheaper than internal combustion vehicles and of course, zero emissions.

So when is it coming to Australia? And will anyone buy it here? Or will it be a failure?

From The New Daily:

Tesla founder Elon Musk announced in a series of Twitter messages on Monday that the Model 3 has “passed all regulatory requirements for production two weeks ahead of schedule”, and that the first cars are expected to “begin rolling off the line on Friday”.

Musk noted that 100 Model 3 cars would be produced in August, before increasing exponentially to 1500 by September and no less than 20,000 produced per month by December.

However, excited Australian customers have been warned to lower their expectations, as Tesla’s accessibility across the country is “poor”.

The Model 3 will retail for $US35,000 ($A45,700) but American customers can receive a $10,000 subsidy – bringing the base model price down to $US25,000 ($A35,900) – for buying an electric car, while Australians cannot.

And if you can afford the new model you could be waiting more than a year to receive it, with about 400,000 pre-orders already placed in the US, Business Insider reported.

But for Australians, the wait will be even longer with the production of right-hand drive models beginning nine months after the initial Model 3 release, Musk tweeted.

It’s estimated delivery for new reservations will occur in late 2018.

Let’s not kid ourselves cost will be the major factor with the success or not of the Model 3 in Australia. Why?

Basically because this country is the exact opposite of Norway. Watch this video (Ive fast forwarded to the salient bits, where my jaw literally dropped)



For those who can’t watch at home, Norway has set itself up to be a carbon neutral country in terms of how it both produces and consumes energy, which includes massive incentives for its people to purchase electric vehicles in the following ways:

99% of its power comes from hydroelectricity (i.e an unlimited cheap energy source)
free parking, free express lane usage and free city entry tolls for electric cars
free vehicle registration fee for electric cars
income tax deduction for using an electric car
electric vehicle manufacturers do not pay sales tax
free chargers for electric cars on major city streets
all financed by the Norway sovereign wealth fund
What does Australia do? Well, apart from not having a sovereign wealth fund to help finance these initiatives as part of a long term strategic goal to transition to a carbon neutral transportation/power system, it does almost the exact opposite:

some of the most expensive electricity prices in the world, with continuing out of control inflation due to total mismanagement of the energy market. SA is already the most expensive in the world and the eastern seaboard catching up with ca. 20-30% increases predicted this year…..!
while having average insolation (solar radiation capture) of 4kWH per square meter, the highest in the developed world, yet the least utilised for solar power.
73% of power production is fossil fuels, mainly coal
luxury car tax applies to most electric vehicles (due to high upfront cost of battery) above $75,000
some subsidising of registration fees for electric/hybrid vehicles (around 20-30%)
the dreaded Australia tax, where everything bought overseas somehow costs twice as much even with a higher currency
no charging stations provided by government (Tesla has installed a few Superchargers) and no solar incentives to produce your own energy at home
In other words, the complete opposite of what a progressive, rich, intelligent nation should be doing in the 21st century. Pick the exact opposite insurance plan to what a thoughtful country would do when presented with the near certain crisis of climate change, where carbon emissions may have to drop to near nothing. And that’s what your politicians have decided to do.

Fucking nuts.

Beyond the long term thinking – something the Lucky Country has never had a surplus of – and the huge disincentives from the Federal and various state governments, it all comes down to the individual car-buyer. And like those who install PV cells on their roof or solar hot water, it becomes a basic cost-benefit analysis.

And it all boils down to electricity prices and on a very stretched household budget as wages stagnate and purchasing power falls does it make sense to swap the Camry or Mazda 3? Only those with mammoth discretionary incomes will make the choice to purchase a car that will probably cost $57,000AUD driveaway (according to RenewEconomy’s Alex Shoolman for the base model) – and most of those folks who have been bitten by the electric bug have bought Model S’s or X’s…

The Tesla Model 3 will fail here in Australia because why would you bother buying an electric car, when charging it will cost about the same or more as filling it up with petrol?

MB Member Myne has done the calculations:

At 60kwh and 100% efficiency, that’s still around $13.2 for a “full tank”.

If you’re assuming identical range, $70 for a full tank, and a $30k petrol car vs $13 in electricity and $60k for the Tesla Model 3 you have to “fill the Tesla up” 526 times to break even on the purchase price and fuel price difference.
An average tank of fuel lasts… let’s say 5 days. So you’re filling up 73 times a year. So the Tesla would take 7.2 years to start to become cheaper than the petrol.
Naturally these sums change if you’re buying the cheapest petrol car available @ $12k.

You’d probably never break even.

And that’s a damn shame, because of any nation that should have an almost exclusive electric powered passenger AND heavy goods vehicle fleet, it should be Australia.

[Evman]

People will pay a premium up front to avoid extra ongoing, long-term costs even if it doesn't pay off. Look at how many diesels are on the road because of the 'savings' they offer from better fuel economy, despite the premium to purchase and despite higher (sometimes much higher) servicing costs. All to get slightly better fuel economy that will never eventuate into any actual saving. Going by the logic above, diesel passenger cars should have failed in Australia.

[TheChad]

Did I mention that I'm pretty into Norway?

The above article sums it all up. Head in the sand, backwards Australia. Bit of a shame really, it's the best place in the world but it could be better if we looked forward and up rather than down and backwards.

[waxdass]

Blame our shit governments and the Energy cartel they have created especially on the east coast.
The companies are rape and pillaging whilst giving handouts to our corrupt as fk officials.

[crabman]

Remember the EV tech we are seeing is still relatively young. It can be optimised from here. Charge times and range and price and everything else can only get better.

Think of what ICE were in thier infancy.

I am no guru on the subject of EV's but has anyone seen any articles around manufacturers adopting some kind of single standard connection/system for 'on the go' charging. So small range extender trailers can be used across different makes and models?

http://jalopnik.com/bollingers-200-mile-electric-truck-is-fantastically-rug-1797333580?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebo ok&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

I'll take one of these and a home-built Miata EV for fun.

[Evman]

^ I really hope standardisation is implemented (much like the USB system). I think having to have a brand-specific charger installed in your house each time you upgrade is laughable, but I can see manufacturers doing it to try and trap/keep customers.

[waxdass]

Another interesting post to read on the topic of Electric vehicles cost competitiveness. I didn't realise Graphene has come a long way in a short time!



The United Nations released its report on global warming earlier this year – it concluded that in order for humanity to survive – TO SURVIVE – we would need to stop 100% all internal combustion engine vehicles by 2030.

Your appreciation of the PRIMARY driver towards electric vehicles is entirely missing. The subsidies on fossil fuels are astronomical – but again – you totally ignore this.

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/

But its not just the trillions on oil subsidies, the cost to society, the environmental cost (the entire species if not the planet), but the international cost is also extraordinary – the almost endless wars are devastating.

But of course this blog just believes the United States and Britain and her allies – these are Democratic Interventions of Peace – nothing to do with anything else. (Credibility ZERO).

But of course we still digress. A small Japanese used car lasts about 8 years – in fact they have a moritorium on them and they have to be recycled or off shored. Most dont last much longer without a major overhaul.

Eitherway – lets look at the price differential each year on a Tesla !

In five years Tesla vehicles have gone from almost $135k down to $100K down to $60k and are now at $35k (Us dollars) – this is after having to FIGHT to be able to sell them in almost EVERY SINGLE STATE IN THE US where they have been blocked from sale due to dealership laws.

So in less than 5 years the prices have gone down 75% or more.

And this is without the subsidies that the states hand out to the dealerships – wow.

VOLVO will not be manufacturing internal combustion engines after 2025, NOR WILL BMW. MERCEDES OR PRETTY MUCH ANY OF THE EUROPEAN MAJOR MANUFACTURERS.

ASIA is basically the same.

By the way – an old Nokia hand a STAND BY TALK TIME OF 10 DAYS. DERP !

The standard measurement for computational improvements is Moors Law – the equivalent for battery tech is DOUBLE that.

Right now the PROVEN TECH for energy storage revolves around Graphene. Which will allow a Tesla to drive around Australia without a recharge – several times. Potentially forever. Entire car being made of Graphene, which is the storage and is also the solar collector.

Either way – governments around the world are rolling out charging points in the cities and freeways to encourage people to transition to electric.

The cost savings to the state are absolutely MASSIVE, the cost savings to the public are HUGE, the environment, public health, safety and of course war.