Any Carby Motor Experts?

[AdN]

Got an old FJ60 2f petrol, have replaced the distributer cap/rotor, leads, plugs etc and put a brand new carb on it. The thing is an absolute pig to start, but once she is started it runs perfectly and idles smooth.

I have a timing light (basic strobe) and the car is set to factory specs, the internets thinks It runs best around the 14deg which I cant adjust to with my timing light as the marker is on the fly wheel through a small window so you need an adjustable timing light. Would advancing the timing make it start worse or better? and is there anything else to check?

My first carb'ed car.

[S85FI]

Underneath the rotor cap there is a anodised plate of steel. Take cap off and plate. It will have a set of points that haven't been changed in years (not many came out with electronic ignition on the carby model)

14 degrees sounds like too much. Disconnected the vacumme line off the distributor vacumme advance line. Then set the timing otherwise it will be too advanced with the vacuum line.

6-10 sounds more right for a long stroke motor. Normally there will be a sticker somewhere in the engine bay with points gap and plug gap, timing and dwell angle requirements.

Now the ignition is sorted set the accelerator pump in the carbi. If the pump is squinting a pre metred delivery of fuel it wont start and will also have a slight flat spot when acceleration is required.

Take filter off carbi and shine a torch down carbi with choke butterfly open. Actuate the throttle and you should see streams of fuel squirts into carbi. If no squirt not pump working.

You can buy the leather cup to refurbish the accelerator pump.

Enjoy.

[Brett_J]

If the timing was out that much it would run rough also, unless it has vacuum advance and it's not set right.
Is the choke working properly when it's cold, is it closed over?
Will it start straight away if you spray the carby with some start ya bastard or similar?
If it fires up straight away it's carby.

Try rotating the distributor a small amount and see if it gets easier to start, make sure you mark initial starting position, if it starts easier and runs good then it'll be timing.
Check the vac lines going to it and the carb, they could be shithouse too.

[Brett_J]

Found this

Ok, here is your response from the master toyota tech that does this all day, every day!!
Yes, it does matter a very slight amount. The reason they
tell you to up the idle is to give you more of a consistent
smoother reading. You should set your timing at an idle speed of 700-750rpm. Then you can align the BB to the pointer. That will be 7deg.BTDC. If you are above 3000 ft. above sea level, then add 2deg. for a total of 9deg.(10 MAX).
Make sure you don't confuse the advance and retard vacuum lines. The port that is furthest from the distributor is advance
The other one closest to the Dist. is retard. If they are mixed up, they serve no purpose at all!! And they don't always work
as you rev the engine or decelerate. They are supposed to be operated by VSV's or vacuum control boxes, depending on model and emissions equipment. Any other questions let me know!!

Kruzrtek

So timing is 7 degrees BTDC and idle should be at 750rpm, when you do the timing disconnect the hoses also.

[PSI110]

Carb engines usually like a couple of throttle pumps before starting, might help a little. also activates the auto choke if you have one.

[AdN]

Thanks, ill give those few ideas a shot, i should be able adjust it to 10 deg with a my timing light.

I will definitly have alook at the points as well, as thats something i havent done.

It has all new vacuum lines as well so there shouldnt be a leak, and the choke works fine. The accelerator pump should be fine as well, as i stated ive put a brand new carb in it and it had no change from the original 30yr old one it replaced.

[Brett_J]

Bang the timing to 7 degrees, when it's running and all good, when you accelerate, the vacuum will advance it on it's own.

[S85FI]

Thanks, ill give those few ideas a shot, i should be able adjust it to 10 deg with a my timing light.

I will definitly have alook at the points as well, as thats something i havent done.

It has all new vacuum lines as well so there shouldnt be a leak, and the choke works fine. The accelerator pump should be fine as well, as i stated ive put a brand new carb in it and it had no change from the original 30yr old one it replaced.

If its been on the shelf new Pumps fail all the time. Thw cup dries out or the clowns fitting them tear the new seal. Check it. Fuel squirt. Hard to start.
u
Should need to adjust the light. Point and shoot at the designated timing marks. Just pull the vacume hoses off the dizi.

[AdN]

It set to 7 degrees now, that is the factory spec as you stated bb dead centre in the window.

The thing is its always hard to start, engine warm or cold. Giving it a few pumps before starting is part of my starting procedure. Problem seemed so much worse today, dont know if one day she just wont fire.

In winter the choke needs to stay on until the engine is well and truly warm on the gauge, in summer you can release choke about 15 seconds after she is started and she will idle like a champ. I have been starting without the choke on and with throttle fully open (summer starting procedure), in winter it choke fully out and throttle fully open.

[Brett_J]

Where abouts are you mate?

[AdN]

NOR: Mirrabooka.

Edit* happy to travel if you want to have a look and give any insight.

[Brett_J]

Ahh miles away, like mentioned, when you open the throttle when it's off, do you get a good spray of fuel?

[AdN]

Yeah quite a nice squirt of fuel, the fuel window is usually about half or slightly lower after long periods of storage.

[Brett_J]

So it's got fuel no worries, def look at the points, might not have enough spark to get it going straight off the bat, but when it's running it does.
Hard to diagnose online, but check them over, and the igntion coil etc.

[AdN]

Sweet as, ill have a look at them tomorrow.

[S85FI]

If you have never changed points before... Read up on it. If the gap is set wrong I.e. not on the rock with the cam high spot..... it won't start or it will run rough. After their set check the gap by measuring the dwell angl . This will affect timing and how long the points last.

[TurboHead]

Worth checking the fuel float level is within spec also.

[AdN]

If you have never changed points before... Read up on it. If the gap is set wrong I.e. not on the rock with the cam high spot..... it won't start or it will run rough. After their set check the gap by measuring the dwell angl . This will affect timing and how long the points last.

Dont have anything to measure the dwell angle, and my tacho is pretty useless as it doesnt read correctly unless under load.

[Brett_J]

If you do change them, and don't know how to set them properly, mark out where the old ones sit first, put the new ones in the exact same spot, chances are that spot was fine, just the cam follower and the points themselves are hugely worn, it still should run a shit loads better.

What happens when you try starting it with engine starting fluid?

[S85FI]

Dont have anything to measure the dwell angle, and my tacho is pretty useless as it doesnt read correctly unless under load.

Most timing lights on the back of them with have the following functions:

Volts
dwell
ohms
mili amps


Same with some analogue Volt meters...

If you can't measure dwell. .. it won't be right. So long since I've done a 6cly but from memory its around 36 degrees of dwell angle.

If you have never done points. ... the gap to set is small. Its about 20 thou of an inch... or about half a mil. Too mich gap.. too little dwell. Too small a gap (worn points) too much dwell. Either way coil saturation will be wrong resulting in a weak spark, particular start up.

[Brett_J]

http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/2f-tune-up-1-jpg.287632/
http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/2f-tune-up-2-jpg.287633/

Manual
http://hugh4prez.nate-online.com/Cruiser%20and%20M416%20Manuals/2F%20Engine.pdf

[AdN]

If you do change them, and don't know how to set them properly, mark out where the old ones sit first, put the new ones in the exact same spot, chances are that spot was fine, just the cam follower and the points themselves are hugely worn, it still should run a shit loads better.

What happens when you try starting it with engine starting fluid?

ill shoot some wd40 through the intake tonight and see what happens.


Most timing lights on the back of them with have the following functions:

Volts
dwell
ohms
mili amps


Same with some analogue Volt meters...

If you can't measure dwell. .. it won't be right. So long since I've done a 6cly but from memory its around 36 degrees of dwell angle.

If you have never done points. ... the gap to set is small. Its about 20 thou of an inch... or about half a mil. Too mich gap.. too little dwell. Too small a gap (worn points) too much dwell. Either way coil saturation will be wrong resulting in a weak spark, particular start up.

The timing light I have is the most basic you can get purely a strobe triggered by an inductive coil.

[Brett_J]

Get hold of some proper starting fluid, wd40 will make oily smoke, Repco do cheap stuff as do Supercheap.

[AdN]

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa6/AdN_31/bbdd04a83b38388de34e130e7fba8064.jpg

Good news is the aero start did f all, so looks like it will be points. They dont look overly worn but obviously the last person who rounded the screw wasnt too competent. Now i did two full revolutions of the crank to be sure it was on the compression stroke and it didnt seem to break contact.

So should i just loosen that rounded screw at tdc and adjust for the 0.4mm?

[Brett_J]

Yep
You can tell the contacts are worn as they usually are pitted, pretty obvious when compared to new ones.

[AdN]

So they look worn or look okay?

And just to confirm they should be adjusted at tdc on the comprssion stroke?

[Brett_J]

The gap that is .3-4mm is the rubbing gap, the gap between the cam and rubbing block.

They need to be adjusted at the top of the lobe on the distributor, doesnt matter where it is in relation to timing, not for the gap. as long as you are on a high side of the rotating cam.

http://www.glenngoodspeed.com/volvo/POINTS.HTM

[AdN]

The gap that is .3-4mm is the rubbing gap, the gap between the cam and rubbing block.

They need to be adjusted at the top of the lobe on the distributor, doesnt matter where it is in relation to timing, not for the gap. as long as you are on a high side of the rotating cam.
L
http://www.glenngoodspeed.com/volvo/POINTS.HTM

Thanks brett, you're a champ. Ill give it a shot tomorrow that rounded screw is stuffed will need to cut a slot into it tomorrow.

[Passage GT]

Look into a pertronix electronic ignition kit dude, I fit one to my old carby patrol years ago and it made a huge difference, noticeably better on fuel and power.

[S85FI]

So they look worn or look okay?

And just to confirm they should be adjusted at tdc on the comprssion stroke?

haha I reckon I got a set of them in the shed....

You have mechanical advance set up on that... pull the plastic cap off on the right of the dizi, there is a dial there, dial to zero before setting the gap otherwise it will be wrong.

Also place a small dab of grease behind the insulator block on the points (the bit that rubs on the lobe) if you don't, the new points will wear out in now time.

Looking at the rust where the mechanical centrifugal weights sit... that dizi hasn't seen day light in a long long time.

Part number is either GH203 or GH 207.... can't remember... one is Toyota and the other Nissan....

LOL @ internet tuning.

The wear on those screws is normal for points...

[S85FI]

And don't be a tight ass..buy new ones... they will be less $2o

[AdN]

Look into a pertronix electronic ignition kit dude, I fit one to my old carby patrol years ago and it made a huge difference, noticeably better on fuel and power.

im starting to think this is the way to go, I would have happily done it but ive only heard horror stories of them failing and leaving people stranded.


And don't be a tight ass..buy new ones... they will be less $2o

was going to buy a new set and keep them in the car regardless, but if it currently just need to be gapped don't see the need to just throw more money at it. the car has have over $6k spent on it in the last 5 months given what I paid for it initially I should have just bought a 100 series. The only reason I went for the 60 was so that I could learn a bit about old cars and do a bit of spanner work.

@S85FI and Brett_J

if you guys are free over the weekend or even tonight, ill happily put on a bbq with beer if you come around to give me a hand. Wouldn't mind someone with the correct tuning tools and skills to give us a hand as I do plan to go for a decent trip over the Christmas break.

[S85FI]

Buy a new set. You cant gap old points as they will be pitted. If you gap them and there is a high spot and that arcs out the gap will close too much rendering a car that wont start.

I livejyst out of freo and got a work do tonight. Tomorrow. .. fuck knows.. hang over?

If the didn't come out with electronic I wouldn't risk it. Unless you carry the spares for bush. points when set right will do 20000km easy.
Also your points are the same for all Toyota so parts are easy in bum fuck no where

[AdN]

Well you both are SOR happy to head south with a few beers, if you guys don't mind helping.

[Passage GT]

I installed my pertronix 8 years ago, sold the car to a dude in my town 2 years ago and its still going strong, see it almost daily, and still miss it haha, I did carry a new points set up with me in case it ever did stuff up, was easy enough to convert back

[AdN]

What an absolute pain to adjust the gap and dremel out the rounded screws.
$8 worth of points and she starts on the first crank. Tweaked timing and adjusted the idle runs heaps smoother and quieter. Also fixed the tacho so it doesnt bounce around the place at idle, guessing due to a cleaner spark.

Thank again for the advice.

[Brett_J]

Awesome news, good feeling actually fixing it yourself though :)
If you'e running a higher octane fuel - 98, crank up the timing a bit :)

[S85FI]

What an absolute pain to adjust the gap and dremel out the rounded screws.
$8 worth of points and she starts on the first crank. Tweaked timing and adjusted the idle runs heaps smoother and quieter. Also fixed the tacho so it doesnt bounce around the place at idle, guessing due to a cleaner spark.

Thank again for the advice.

Glad you did. I have a headache. ..

Tacho works better not because of the spark but the collapse in the coil being faster and smother. This generates a higher voltage spark at the plug. The signal for the tacho is picked up from the - terminal of the coil.

Now that you changed them, buy a dwell meter, they won't be expensive and chech the points that way. Get that right and they will last at least 20,000km.

Great effort as points are a fiddly and very precise in adjustment component of tuning.

[S85FI]

And make sure you dialed that knob on the side of the dizzy to 0. If you didn't you won't get full mechanical ignition advance when the vacume advance drops off.... in other words your high rpm power wont be to its full potential.

[AdN]

And make sure you dialed that knob on the side of the dizzy to 0. If you didn't you won't get full mechanical ignition advance when the vacume advance drops off.... in other words your high rpm power wont be to its full potential.

Why would you ever want it set anywhere else? In other words why does that dial exist?

[AdN]

After turning that dial, its pretty obvious what it does. So ill set the gap again.

[S85FI]

Why would you ever want it set anywhere else? In other words why does that dial exist?

Its fitted so you can advance/retard tune pending other things such as cams, heads/ exhaust etc.

A lot of people also set points wrong and use that to set ignition timing. Which then means the breaker plate has been moved limiting the mechanical weights for ignition advance with engine rpm.

[Brett_J]

Ahhh the days of the retard and advance lever in the car :)