City of Fremantle parking ticket.. BS!

[Jezzza]

Hi all,

A little annoyed atm..
So got an infringement in the letter box the other day for a parking offence in Fremantle.
The wife and I are always cautious of where we park, and always buy a ticket if we need to. We never do dodgey parking and try to avoid tickets, its just not in our nature.

The infringement is for parking on Cliff street in Fremantle, and the only photo evidence
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/203/pusz.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/5npuszj)
I have stated to the infringement appeals person that we have never parked on Cliff street, and the last time we were in Freo we were parked on a ONE way street, and we would of bought a ticket for parking
I have asked for photo evidence of our car on Cliff street without a ticket displaying, but they cannot prove it

Should I appeal in court? Is it worth it? Has anyone appealed a parking fine?
I know for 100% we are getting reemed by City of Fremantle and this infringement is total BS
Now it sucks because it makes me feel like NOT going to freo anymore

[_S9_]

Any EXIF data on the original photo they gave you?

[ossie_21]

Pretty weird that it's come by mail. Just keep fighting it

[stormtrooper]

Any EXIF data on the original photo they gave you?

^This. You might be able to pull GPS data from the EXIF if the device used to take the photo was GPS enabled.

[Slip_]

Can confirm city of freo do some crazy shit, have copped multiple parking fines for a motorbike that i've never owned. Just call them.

[stormtrooper]

I copped a parking fine in the parking lot opposite the Esplanade Hotel one day, whilst paying for a fucking ticket.

[S85FI]

Do it in writing. Im a rate payer for freo and they have strict policies.

Ive copped fines with a residents parking sticker attached to the windscreen.

Puss and pain but they withdrew it.

Everything needs to be in writing for freo... dont do anything over the phone.

[Joe]

What was written on the infringement as the offence?

Was there a ticket issued at any stage prior i.e. is the ticket in the mail a follow up ticket, or is it the first time you've received the notice?

[Fukushima]

Do it in writing... We've all had fines withdrawn in my department.

A great one was when they fined all of us for exceeding a 2 hour zone on a Sunday.

The signs all said mon-fri but they argued for months that their map in the office said mon-sun so the fine was valid.

Three years later the signs are still mon-fri

[Jezzza]

Basically, we never for a ticket on the windscreen
We received a "Reminder Notice" to pay the infringement, alleged offence was 29/11/13 and this final payment is due 6/02/2014. Never seen an initial infringement before

No proof our car was ever parked on Cliff street (and I know it has never been there because we have never parked there before!)
No photo evidence of no ticket displaying
No photo evidence of ticket issued on windscreen

Do these chumps have quotas to meet? Thinking a lot of people get screwed over. We were just gonna pay cause its only $50, but thought I would inquire as we never park illegally/grey areas to avoid such issues like this

Edit: I have been talking to someone via email, and she has already talked to the "officer" who issued the fine.. I call BS
And she keeps claiming she has sent us proof our car was on Cliff street which is the photo in the first post
I told her I will be taking it to court, but maybe ill write to the council first

[S85FI]

Have you ever lent the car to someone and they parked it there?
Had this happen before. .. was not impressed.

[Jezzza]

Nah, it would of been us. But we would of payed for a ticket. If we got a fine that night on our windscreen, we would of taken a picture of the ticket and sent it to them
Only other time I remember being in Freo, we parked down a street which was one way
Both sides of the road had cars facing towards the ocean, and we parked on the right hand (drivers side) road, which is impossible on Cliff street

[Jezzza]

^This. You might be able to pull GPS data from the EXIF if the device used to take the photo was GPS enabled.

How do you obtain the EXIF data? :|

[tinto]

http://exif-viewer.com/

http://regex.info/exif.cgi

[stormtrooper]

As Tinto said. There's a few online providers that can extract the data from the image for you else you can find a program to pull the data. :)

[Jezzza]

Thanks guys

[Missile]

What is the actual offence that you have been fined for?

[Jezzza]

"Fail to display valid ticket (ticket zone)"

BTW, interesting read.. seems like they haven't made any change
http://freoview.wordpress.com/2010/10/09/contested-parking-fines-are-huge/

[Evman]

Do they have a photo of your dash proving there was no ticket displayed? If not then contest it for sure, stating there is no evidence you were breaking the law

[Jezzza]

No photo evidence

She also keeps stating the ticket was issued outside 47 Cliff Street, but the last car park stops at (opposite side of road) 45.
47 doesn't seem to exist, and if I was outside number 47, I would of been illegally parked because there are no bays that side of the road!!!
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/30/na0d.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/0una0dj)

Edit: Turns out my company also designed the building on the right (in the photo) .. 44-48 Cliff Street

[Evman]

They have no leg to stand on. They usually take a pic of both the front and the rear of the car, plus the dash. If it even got to court you could simply ask the inspector a few questions about the car (colour, dash colour, distinguishing features, etc) and of the location (seems to be false anyway) to show that the recollection of the inspector is not suitable to rely on.

[Jezzza]

They seem reluctant to budge.

A couple extracts from emails going back and forth
My response after they sent me some details the parking officer took down

Can I ask a question? May seem silly, but how come the officer has noted down “outside number 47” ?
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/811/jrfv.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/mjjrfvj)



Thanks for your enquiry Jeremy,

The officer placed a note to ensure when Administration receive an appeal, we know where the vehicle was parked.

So “outside number 47” would indicate outside number 47 Cliff Street, Fremantle.

Yours sincerely

zz

This is how well they keep records of fines issued (I was asking for a copy of the original infringement they leave on the car window)

Yes, we did not receive a copy of the infringement that night
What does the ticket even look like? Is it hand written? Or is it via a printed machine?
Surely you must have a copy of it..


Regards

Jeremy Lim



Dear Mr Lim,
The infringement notices are printed on a continuous roll by a handheld computerised device with an in-built printer. City of Fremantle has a record of the data recorded by the reporting officer, but, as on this occasion, reporting officers do not usually print a second copy. I am informed you have been given a copy of the data today. Certainly the reminder notice contains the details of the allegation.

Kind regards
xx



Can I ask, how does the officer record the offence if they do not print a second copy for record keeping?


Regards

Jeremy Lim
This is after they had the nerve to ask me for a parking ticket we paid for over 2 months ago as proof to waiver the fine..
This is when they started to get a little more blunt, didn't get much of a response on this

Last reply before they stopped emailing me.. (asking how long the period is allowed to pay for fines)

Dear Mr Lim,
28 days from date of issue.

Given the large number of enquiries and the information given to you, it is clear that you have more than sufficient information with which to instruct legal counsel and to defend the charge in court. Consequently, we do not intend to respond to further similar questions.

We await the documents to which you referred in your e-mail of 1.16pm today.

Kind regards

xx


MY response

Ok I do apologise for causing you inconvenience.

I just can’t seem to find number 47 Cliff Street on google maps, nor can I see any parking on that side of the road.
It puzzles me why a parking officer would see my car without the alleged parking ticket displayed, even if I were parked in the ‘last’ carpark, go across the road to find a number which doesn’t even exist and record it down, instead of using the numbers “40” and “42” on the correct side of the street which are clearly visible, or using the Notre Dame building as a reference (Lot 3, 44-48 Cnr Cliff St & Croke St Fremantle),

I will be sending through the forms today

Thanks


Regards

Jeremy Lim

[1JZVL]

pingpingpingpings!!

[Fukushima]

Send them a letter...

As you can see the emails are dealt with by muppets

[sensei_]

stop dealing with the council, just go to court, looks like the department is staffed with idiots.

[protecon]

stop dealing with the council, just go to court, looks like the department is staffed with idiots.
It's only $50 why would you go to court?

[Evman]

It's only $50 why would you go to court?

That's the trap. Cheap enough to not be worth doing anything about, even if you didn't do anything wrong. No doubt they expect people to not bother contesting.

[protecon]

Who pays for court fees?

Life is full of injustices, and this one apparently only cost you $50.
How many times have you not been caught speeding?

[S85FI]

You if you lose.

[Jezzza]

Its not about the money, its about the fact I want to expose these guys for dodgey tickets and making others aware to not let them get away with it
Think about it, if the officers have a quota to meet (probably fait to say), issue 100 dodgey fines per month.. most people would just pay it.. "its only $50".. I nearly did
That's revenue of $5,000 a month, plus it encourages them to keep doing it as they get away with it, screwing more people over

[sicka]

fuck the council.

the fine is suss

[R3N]

Today Tonight

[Jezzza]

Ive written a letter and sent it to City of Fremantle, with all attached information
Hopefully they will be more discerning..

[sensei_]

It's only $50 why would you go to court?

sometimes its the principle of the matter.

governments know that by having the fine so "low" most people will just pay up and "admit guilt". but if you have genuinely not done anything wrong, i dont see why anyone should have to cop the fine.

[volt_bite]

If you have the time and effort, then go ahead.

Personally I probably wouldn't because I'm a bit lazy but I can see the frustration if you are genuinely in the right and some f**kwit tries to get you for something.

[MadDocker]

sometimes its the principle of the matter.

One of the many things I've picked up over the years running a small business is, sometimes principles cost money. Doesn't mean you shouldn't fight the ticket.

[volt_bite]

Indeed, time is money. Hence why I said if I had the time. Effort is another thing.

Looks like they aren't prepared to give up easily (or neither of you are backing down haha).

[jzx_andy]

elect to go to court. Have been in this situation with city of joondalup (they fined me for stopping in a no stopping zone despite the road being bumper to bumper - apparently local council bylaws trump state laws!)

so i pretty much trolled them in a letter, ridiculing their perception of the rules and basically said, OK let's go to court, send me the documents so i can lodge a defense. they withdrew the fine a few weeks later.

they only do this kind of shit because most people either think they did something wrong, the fine is too small, or they just dont want to fight it. straya pingpingpingping. more people fighting dodgy fines, the better!

sure it costs a little bit of money now, but they'll keep on doing it, and they'll do it more often and with heavier fines - clog up their system of bullshit fines and they will quickly realize it's not worth it. people gotta be more proactive here, otherwise this country will go to shit. governments should be afraid of their people - this is something that is untrue in australia.

[karnage]

I'd say take it to court Jezzza. No photographic evidence apart from some bullshit photo that doesn't prove anything.

[Joe]

In summing up, it's the Constitution, it's Mabo, it's justice, it's law, it's the vibe, and, uh ... No, that's it. It's the vibe.

[Sebdullah]

In summing up, it's the Constitution, it's Mabo, it's justice, it's law, it's the vibe, and, uh ... No, that's it. It's the vibe.


Shark cull will fix it

[Jezzza]

Ive definitely wasted more time than what I earn per hour!

Hopefully they will withdraw the fine though
Dunno if I can be bothered going to court.. means I have to take annual leave!

Maybe should ask for compensation if it goes to court and I win, for wasting my time after I have already proven innocence
Any AL lawyers here? lol

[kyle_340]

I believe sir catman on here is studying law

[stumps.]

I am up to date on the TV series Suits if that helps?

Happy to give advice where applicable

[Jezzza]

So I got a response today from another twat..
I get the feeling they always try the scare tactic with "court" and "solicitor" wordings


Dear Jeremy Lim

PARKING INFRINGEMENT NOTICE 82013269

Thank you for your correspondence received 06 February 2014 concerning parking infringement notice 82013269, in relation to motor vehicle registered number 1DQC443.

The matters raised have been referred to me for further consideration. Having reviewed the matter I am in agreement with the decision to allow this infringement notice to remain in effect.

The infringement notice remains outstanding in the amount of $50, which is due for payment by 11 February 2014. Failure to satisfy payment by the due date will incur additional costs, and may later involve licence suspension if it continues to remain outstanding.

Should you wish to have this matter dealt with by a magistrate at the Fremantle Magistrates’ Court, please advise us in writing. Perhaps you may wish to obtain legal advice prior to doing so.

Yours faithfully


I don't know how dumb you have to be to see that there is no evidence
Looks like im going to court, but first I want to find out if I can pursue compensation for wasting my time even when I have now appealed twice

[Intercpt]

F**k that!
They are calling you on the bluff.
Court or stop whining and pay.
Don't bother with compensation you wont win a cent.

[S85FI]

Very unlikely you will get costs for your time. Maybe just court fees if you claim.

If your legit with it, let them know you will roll with it. They need to decide the same. The burden Of proof of you not committing the offence is on you.

Request digital images like the crew said. Have something substantial etc . When you have that... write to freo otherwise you will go down like a lead baloon and they will claim costs.

I'm not a lawyer. .. but been to court enough times to know how it works as a defendant.

[Jezzza]

Thanks all for help
I am going to take this to court as im sick of trying to deal with these guys

Im pretty sure I have taken all steps to try and resolve this matter outside of court
- Contacted council, and discussed
- Written a letter to council

What else can I do other than waste my time to go down there, which im sure I will get the same result

[S85FI]

Ask them to produce

Ask them to produce something called "material of facts"
Should include the following at a minimum

Name of person taking photo
Type of equipment used and to be proficient in the equipment
Location etc of offence
Original digital image sent to you so you can verify date time stamp and gps if fitted
Ask why no background image of the carscars location

You want this to begin your " defence". They do not need to know if you will have representation.

Keep your letter formal, short and basic information request.

I.e. please provide. ... nothing else as in reason.

They will know what your intentions are.

If you're legit, you may come out ok.

When You write formal request just above your the subject line write in bold
By email
BY Post

Most reputable lawyers will do the above.... they will kmow this. ..

[dmanvan]

Its not about the money, its about the fact I want to expose these guys for dodgey tickets and making others aware to not let them get away with it
Think about it, if the officers have a quota to meet (probably fait to say), issue 100 dodgey fines per month.. most people would just pay it.. "its only $50".. I nearly did
That's revenue of $5,000 a month, plus it encourages them to keep doing it as they get away with it, screwing more people over

Exactly....... if you represent yourself going to court only costs you your time. Costs are paid to the winner by the loser. Usually with a corresponding reduction in fine with costs then added on so it isn't much more than the fine was in the first place. Ie if you lose you will have to pay some costs, but the catch is when you win (representing yourself) you don't get to charge for costs unless you have counsel! go figure....

I am 2 wins / 3 losses with taking cops to court over dodgy speeding infringements so yes, you can compile the evidence, do the research and win. The losses are frustrating but hey everything is usually stacked against the little guy and yes I would do it everytime with what I have learnt over the years. Good luck to you..

also like some other wise people have mentioned in this day of informal email banter, NEVER underestimate a well worded formally addressed letter. A letter goes over the head of the stupid email gatekeepers and usually gets results. If it doesn't, it is a better court paper trail than a tonne of emails back and forth.

Good luck..like your style...

[Fukushima]

Burn down the building

[BIGS]

Knowing how stubborn a person you are Jer I knew from the outset you'd take it all the way. Good on you for doing so!!

[TurboHead]

Hit them up with an FOI request for all infringements issued on that day - needed to compile evidence of sestemic rorting by the parking inspectors to assist in your defence. The paperwork will kill them.

[S85FI]

They can charge you an hourly rate for the paper work.....

[Jezzza]

Thanks all,

Have spoken to someone regarding the legal side of things
I feel like I have done everything in my power to resolve the matter without a court
ie. asking for evidence, any other data (EXIF), GPS location etc.
I have also sent a written letter to the council, which just got handed to the infringement appeals anyways and declined

Ill wait for the paperwork to come, and ill take them to court.
A lot of people reckon they will back down once I send in the paperwork stating I want to take the matter to court

[Evman]

It is a lot of stuffing around going to court and you're never guaranteed to win. None the less, in this instance it seems to be the right thing to do so regardless of the outcome, good on you for fighting your case.

[d1mitch]

good on you. fuck bending over everytime the council says so. especially when you are not in the wrong and they cant prove otherwise

[_S9_]

Plot twist;

They have a full image of the car parked in the zone, OP did actually park there and can't remember
They only sent him a cropped photo and have the full one with GPS which they will bring to court.

Fremantle parking inspectors be like;
http://i.imgur.com/DjVbQBAs.png



Awkward....

[Evman]

Plot twist;

They have a full image of the car parked in the zone, OP did actually park there and can't remember
They only sent him a cropped photo and have the full one with GPS which they will bring to court.

Fremantle parking inspectors be like;
http://i.imgur.com/DjVbQBAs.png



Awkward....

That's fucked. You get a chance to "opt out" before the court date don't you? I seem to remember getting a confirmation letter when I contested a speeding fine which I had to send off to confirm I wanted to contest the infringement.

[protecon]

Thanks all,

Have spoken to someone regarding the legal side of things
I feel like I have done everything in my power to resolve the matter without a court
ie. asking for evidence, any other data (EXIF), GPS location etc.
I have also sent a written letter to the council, which just got handed to the infringement appeals anyways and declined

Ill wait for the paperwork to come, and ill take them to court.
A lot of people reckon they will back down once I send in the paperwork stating I want to take the matter to court

How did you go with this?

[scottiedoesntn0]

Hope it went well and you tore them a new one.
Slimey ranger fucks!

Now just make sure you avoid The Town of East Freo as well...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SUHHK1tRGKc/UxbxuHyN7bI/AAAAAAAAAe0/T0uKdOl0r8A/w1020-h574-no/IMG_20140305_171653_751.jpg

Have to laugh at the administrative costs for the poor dears working away so hard in the aircon during "11-1pm" which they still seem to be unobtainable to contact via any means.

Might help them if they had a functioning website with a direct email link...

Anywho,
Think I'll be redeeming my $25 with fresh foliage in the near future :D

[S85FI]

The infringement was issued incorrectly then... and changing it and calling it a modified penalty is a crock. I bet if you read their act they wouldn't have such scope ( could be wrong)

I'd tell the fucker to fuck right off.

[sensei_]

funny fuckers thinking that they are doing you a favour by reducing the "penalty", when a valid ticket was indeed produced.

i dont see how its the problem of the driver if the ranger misses the tickets.

i think there was a case in melbourne where a driver infact was given an infringement whilst buying an actual ticket.

[-Luke-]

"Dear Sir,
Blow me.




sincerest regards
Valid ticket holder"

[d1mitch]

funny fuckers thinking that they are doing you a favour by reducing the "penalty", when a valid ticket was indeed produced.

i dont see how its the problem of the driver if the ranger misses the tickets.

i think there was a case in melbourne where a driver infact was given an infringement whilst buying an actual ticket.

yes there was a case in melbourne where that happened, the accompanying letter to the council was hillarious something along the line of next time i will make sure i drvie along and throw coins at the machine from my open window so as to make sure i have a ticket before i exit the car.

[volt_bite]

Throw coins at the parking inspector? hehe

[d1mitch]

her you go - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/05/guy-gets-ticket-30-second_n_525091.html

[Jezzza]

Heh, haven't updated in a while as I have forgotten about it
Sent in papers for court appeal, no reply

I shall harass them now, and demand an apology ;)

[Jezzza]

Well, looks like their solicitor is going to contact me haha
This is now beyond a joke!

[S85FI]

Well, looks like their solicitor is going to contact me haha
This is now beyond a joke!

He's going to bluff you, let you know if you lose you will have a conviction and want to hit you up for costs.....

[thommo]

download a few episods of 'suits' to help get you through the process

[Greg Rust]

Ask their solicitor for the evidence.

[sensei_]

her you go - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/05/guy-gets-ticket-30-second_n_525091.html

never fails to have me laughing literally at the awesome letter.