Forced Induction (Blowers) what to expect/look for

[S85FI]

Fellas,

Help me out. My experience with forced induction is 0. All I've done is read and read about blower problems and the temperamental issues resulting in catastrophic results.

Engine will be a S85 5.Olt.

Didn't find too much on the forum, in saying that I didn't want to go through pages of threads.

Blowers, what have your experiences been with them. I'm looking at a product called Vortech. It appears all the mods for the S85 engine uses this brand/style.

Seems to be available for Holdens and Fords too.

Things I've read are:

Fuel mixtures go from 14.7 - 1 to 12-13.1.
Changing pulley radius by as little as 4mm (appears to be small is it so?) = some 4 psi, with engines failing.
Tuning, do you do it or get a programmer for the algorithms?
Oils fueling up
Pinging - can you hear it like a normal car?
Air density for a hot day, can you control this or is it like at the drags when everything changes
Methanol injection options, have you and is it worth it ( methanol systems only a few extra $$)
Stability of your cooling system? does it cope? In the S85 engine under full throttle the thermostat opens regardless of engine temp
What do I need to look out for?
What is a myth?
Reliability, in theory less rpm for more hp should be more reliable?
Any links with relevant information, negative or positive.

Thanks,

[TJ]

Definitely different fueling needs for FI

What ecu/tuning method will determine if you adjust for hot day/drags

Pulley size change will affect speed of blower and thus psi

Oil will need more regular changing

Ping - if its bad, youll hear it.

Meth injection on a highly strung motor ... if its cheap, invest.

Cooling system should be fine.

My biggest worry would be gearbox brate.

[S85FI]

Definitely different fueling needs for FI

What ecu/tuning method will determine if you adjust for hot day/drags
Apparently kits auto tune fuel and ignition. This is stuff I need to confirm.

Pulley size change will affect speed of blower and thus psi

Oil will need more regular changing
Doing analysis to establish oil life. Have base tests.

Ping - if its bad, youll hear it.
Apparently impossible to ping the S85 engine. It detects ignition failure prior to occurring hence I want to know if you will hear it. S85 runs 12.5 to 1 and that seems to be high.

Meth injection on a highly strung motor ... if its cheap, invest.
It's cheap.

Cooling system should be fine.
Doing analysis on that too.

My biggest worry would be gearbox brate.
Runs SMG III getrag. Box is physically big and meant to handle substantial amount or more hp. Haven't read on box failures that arw maintained. Oil change required every 3 engine oil changes

[R3N]

I had a Vortech V2 centrifugal sc on my old V35. U believe the V3 have their own oil reservoir.

Tuning is tuning, nothing special. Boost is rpm dependent and dependent on ratio of pulley. My charger was loud, not much else you can hear.

I don't trust meth injection, just a personal opinion. Better off going E85.

Not sure if the m5s have oil and trans coolers, but good idea to have them.

[S85FI]

Engine is remote oil filter with cooler. Box has cooler. Diff has cooling fins.
Car doesnt have temp gauge only oil temp gauge. Never has got over 110.
I have heard a vortech and it was incredibly loud.


Only read of 1 V3 leaking oil into combustion chamber. Replaced with no issues.

[Lonewolf]

Vortech blowers are pretty old tech, been used for a long time in euro cars (and some aussie stuff too).
Centrifugal blower so basically the more revs you pile on the more boost you get, so you still get a linear power curve - unlike a turbo which gives you a big midrange increase too.
Because of this linearity can be a bit easier to tune as the boost transition is smoother.

Blowers all tend to suck some power to make it, being driven off the crank.
Some versions use your engine oil for lubrication, others their own self contained system with radiator.

Newer tech stuff is from Rotrex - quieter, more power efficient, more boost earlier (this is what the koenigsegg uses 2 of)
Very good bits of kit, but more expensive, and a quick google indicates no off the shelf kit for your car.

Fuel mixtures - depends a lot on the motor, generally you will run it richer to keep the combustion chamber cool, but with a detonation resistant motor like yours may be less of an issue.
Either way, you will want someone with full control over the ECU - to maximise power and reliability. A lot of the generic flash tune stuff i wouldnt go with if going f/i on such a high strung motor.

Methanol injection can work, but you'd want the tune to be able to go to limp mode if it runs out or something.
Prefer to use an intercooler - centrifugal blower means piping shouldnt be too hard if theres room at the front of the car.

[Buckets]

Personally I'd keep the M5 N/A. It's a highly strung (and highly expensive) N/A motor and the risk you take by feeding boost in to it for a relatively moderate HP gain isn't worth it IMO. Unless you want to go all out, run new internals, new intake and exhaust, new fuel system, ect ect ect it's simply not worth it.

Spend the cash on an intake, pipes and proven N/A tune to suit the mods and enjoy. The M5 is fast but trying to make it as fast as a significantly modified car that's basically had the majority OEM powertrain binned is not feasible. I'd wager a mob like Galvsport could build you a GTR with Signature Series everything for less money than it would take to do the M5 mods properly and the Sig Series GTR would still hose the modified M5...

[Lump]

agreed, its allready running 12:1 CR, so e85 will be a must with even low boost I'm guessing.

new to FI, nothing like jumping in the deep end lol, wish you all the success & good luck!

[skinkis]

Personally I'd keep the M5 N/A.

Party pooper.

Boost makes everything better!

I'll just leave this here as it seems highly relevant.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PFIzAm6Fcow" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[BLACK HULK]

If you are going to run meth. Do not tune for it. Use it purely for IAT cooling, that way if it runs out or the system fails you are less likely to pop the motor. With such high compression running boost probably won't be kind to your motor. So I would say either budget for a built one or stay N/A

[cplagz]

http://www.g-power.de/914.html?&L=1

http://www.esstuning.com/categories/BMW/E60%7B47%7D61-5%252dSeries/M5/

[Evman]

Centrifugal blowers don't have anywhere near the IAT problems that valley-mounts do because you can use an air-air intercooler. Under no circumstances would I recommend going forced induction without an intercooler, it is an absolute must in our weather. Vortech blowers have been used aplenty on LS engines without reliability issues. What's the compression ratio of the motor?

[S85FI]

12.1

Im looking at rhe Gintani kit. ESS seem to have poor after sales support outside the US.
GPOWER not a chance. Dont want to run two compressors for low hp mods.
Gintani have had two cars let go. One caugh on fire (ps line heat sheild was left off and line let go and hit extractors) second one was big end fail (spun bearing) from oil getting hot. However Gintani haven't made excuses, explained the causes and got on with it. I'd rather deal with that than BS.

Appreciate the honest responses with dont do it.

Want something different. Dont want a GTR etc. Dont like new M5 hence not trading in.

I also accept if it lets go, thats the modding world. On the same token I look after my cars and dont beat on them for the sake on beating on them.

Parts for the M5 aren't that dear. Aftermarket go fast bits are with little hp gain except the 4 companies doing FI kits.

Built motors are, bit a dinian stroker is 650 hp and big bucks.

Exhausts, intakes etc dont even get an extra 20 rwhp.

Qld have plenty of M3 with FI and Southern BM in Vic have had several M5 all with the same response, for the money you need on intakes etc it won't be anywhere near the FI kits and around 14k.

Lots of simple things here raised which I'll be asking the questions when I meet up with Gintani rep in 3 weeks.

Will talk to Galvsport soon to see if they can load up files. Can't flash tune the car. Ecu files need to be deleted, new files loaded. Battery disconnected, then wait fof computer to load up new files.
Standard OBD II diagnosis equipment won't talk to the car.
15% power loss in drive train.

Thats all I know :( limited. ...

[S85FI]

Also wont do e85. Too many fuel components deterioration from the euro and US. Also in 2012 BMW did a recall on the e60 M5 with carbon brushes wearing out and no say the safe limit is 5%.

[cplagz]

Ask R3N, I know he flashed new files onto his ECU/Transmission in the 335i

[S85FI]

Can flash tune most BMW. M cars ( mine certainly) have some lock out. Have tried various flash tune systems and no go. All you get is the system can not connect to ECU. So now I have a collection of crap for the car that RIP in a bin. Emailed the companies and they just refunded the money and said keep the product after emailing to tell me it won't work on the M5 despite stating it will. Over the last 2years or so I now notice on products "excludes E60 M5".

Bought some software where I'm halfway through installing and learning. Its doing my head in but slowing relearning modern efi. Now reading up on optics and CAN BUS systems.

[200MPH]

Don't stress too much about your compression ratio being too high. Lotus Exige use the 2ZZ-GE Toyota motor in both n/a and roots blower supercharged forms. Internals of the motor are untouched when they add a blower and they run 11.5:1 compression! With good engine control I'm sure you could run a bit of boost, say 7 psi. Though it would be nicer if you could tweak fuel system to take E85, but that tweak may mean binning entire fuel system is your research is true.
Highly strung NA motors such as yours have nowhere to go in terms of torque essentially. You can pickup some top end power with breathing mods, but that's about it as M do a good job. So the only real option is to charge it, and a centrifugal supercharger seems the softest and hence safest option, though they too don't make decent boost until high up in the rev range. But this is good for limiting increase in max torque lower in the rev range, and this is what I assume is the limiting factor, especially on pump 98.

Your money, your car, but I say go for it!

[Damo 69]

centrifugal supercharger
programmable ecu - tuned by a reputable local
pump, lines and injectors to run E85

[TJ]

I wouldnt run 85 on a daily driven blown e60 m5 in Perth. Will be forever chasing fueling stations that simply dont exist yet.

[Damo 69]

No harm in having the capacity to for special occasions

[Riggs]

Spend the cash on an intake, pipes and proven N/A tune to suit the mods and enjoy.

This is a better avenue IMO

[S85FI]

This is a better avenue IMO
Headers that have increase in power 6-8 k. Cat back doesn't make much and the restriction is forward of the cats. 10x throttle bodies bored around 3k. ECU files replaced around 2k. Power increase less than ~30 hp at wheels. I don't think it's value for money.

Low boost around 6.5 psi.

[Riggs]

But will last a shitload longer.

[TJ]

Nothing to say that if boost is kept lowish and its tuned well it wont last regardless?

[Tre-Cool]

buy vf commodore, add mods to it.

replace badges with bmw ones.

not live in fear of highly string v10 motor going bang under boost

[Nugs]

Or boost V10 motor, if it goes bang (unlikely) rebuild with stronger internals and YSI blower :)

There are tons of supercharged M3s (very similar engine) going around and very few have problems.

[adrenalin]

If you keep the boost under 10 PSI it should be fine.

If you are going to fork out all this money for forced induction just do it right the first time. Its all in the tune. The biggest issue you will find is actually finding a tuner over here who can tune it properly. The forced induction BMW knowledge in perth is very very minimal.

Build the bottom end correctly. Yes it will cost a heap of money but better then having to spend that money and some due to destroying the motor.

[R3N]

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/254609-longevity-supercharged-s85-motors.html

[Lonewolf]

i'd look at the tuning options before anything, if you cant properly tune it on the dyno to suit the mods i wouldnt bother.
Whilst the factory BMW ecu will be smart (and able to self correct some stuff) you will be pissing into the wind otherwise.

May want to look at a good aftermarket ecu (e.g. Vipec/Motec) that can piggyback the factory ECU (left to control the dash, aircon idle-up, maybe DBW) and have the aftermarket unit spliced in for fuel, ignition etc.
This is the path i was going to go with the astra as despite the fact that the factory ECU can be tuned, no-one in WA could do so.

[S85FI]

Keen to keep the oem ecu. I'll see if I can dig up the ignition system again but it kinda works in reverse to a normal ignition system. As in electrical path at the plug. Uses same/similar system to BMW F1 systems where it powers the plug electrode from earth to to centre core as opposed to centre core to earth. There are sensors on the block to detect when plug fires and prior to fuel ignition. If it detects a ping thats going to occur from combustion pressures, it earth's out the ignition prior to plug firing. Kinda strange how it worked but apparently can't ping hence I wanted to to know if one would hear it.

Special NGK plugs were developed for correct resistance.

I've read all the links previously but there still has been infor that I haven't considered. Its been good.

M3 S65 is the baby version of the S85.

Photos of engine bay going over tonight as our wiring positions are different. Apparently... for rhd...

[Lonewolf]

Wiring etc doesnt really matter if your wanting to do everything via the factory ecu (you'll need to still have it there if you want the car to work at all)

as above, you'll want to find someone who can flash the factory ECU, and data log it, may need to fly in someone from overseas though..
Or see if there is a company that can do remote tuning, using an emulator (to saving having to flash between changes), add dyno rental time on top of that

[S85FI]

Already had a company log into car remotely via Internet from Italy. I did a test run 2 years ago when when blowers were being mentioned.

Details at home but it was IMD technologies ( from memory) who email a package for the lap top. A company in NSW emailed a file to kap top which gave remote access to car.

Didn't work first attempt. Mob in NSW didn't renew IMD licence therefore device wouldn't connect. But they paid it via credit card and 5 minutes later we were in.

Ive done lots of reading and one dummy remote connection to see if it works.

Hopefully technology is more affordable and Galvsport are checking to see if they can connect to the ECU.

Im confident the products will work and keen to know/issues people have faced here. Im thinking the principles of FI would be the same including problems despite level of technologies.

Southern BM can also do it, but want the car there. Don't want to keep freighting car back and forth so keen to establish rapport locally.

Im also considering to fly to VIC to see their FI M5's that have been done.
Or it all just becomes too hard and wait another few years for next model. ....

[S85FI]

Fellas,

Pros and cons of a blow off valve vs. Bypass valve?

[huggy_b]

Fellas,

Pros and cons of a blow off valve vs. Bypass valve?

Pros: same thing
Cons: none

[Lump]

pro/con=noise

bov vents to atmo, bypass valve (in bmw terminology) vents back to intake

[R3N]

Pros: same thing
Cons: none


pro/con=noise

bov vents to atmo, bypass valve (in bmw terminology) vents back to intake


BZZZT wrong!

On S/C applications, you want a bypass valve, not a blowoff valve. As the S/C is being driven off the engine, at idle, it will technically make boost, the bypass valve will remain open to allow this pressure to vent out. As soon as you stab the throttle, the bypass valve will close and positive pressure will build. BOVs are not suitable for this as they let off pressure quickly and then snap shut.

The Euro term for BOVs that recirculate back are dump valves.

[S85FI]

R3N,

Nice. Thanks. The kit I'm looking at only comes with bypass. Their intent is to maintain placid low rpm driving. Makes sense.

[S85FI]

Orderd today. :) eta to Australia 4 weeks.

[R3N]

300km/h at RW now?

[BLACK HULK]

Shit that's quick. Wish mine would get here that quick. Looking forward to seeing this thing running

[Niva]

@Racewars 300km/h ?

fixed :D

[S85FI]

300 no idea. But hopefully somewhat better than 254.7km/h. Following year diff gears and exhaust. Accountant wouldn't let me spend the cash this year.

Not as keen as me. They have already sent me fitting instructions so I can get my head around it.

Need to find a paint shop to get the manifold painted to same colour as car.

[matty12]

I run a blitz blow off valve on my v2 vortech, other than the fact it rediculously noisey all the time so far so good. I have done a lot of kwys though. There is a blow off valve you can buy that you can especially order a supercharger spring, just forget the name. I just run a light weight spring so the valve is open at idle. With a quick rev it snaps shut.

[Lonewolf]

what package did you end up going with?

[Damo 69]

Owen at meltham motors for the manifold

Or consider a ceramic coat from CIC to keep heat from the bay out

[Simon]

Methanol inj is fine, most guys seem to think that the systems they can get are prehistoric.

It's safe to tune on too if you have a fail safe. As such with 99.9999999999% of modern kits do. Which is no more than a solenoid triggered to open via reserviour tank level, and opening the bypass valve to physically stop any boosted air from entering the motor..
When that happens, motor goes rich (12.0) on a high cr motor is fine for cruise still and no boost will be made.

That's what the kit I had did and it worked really well. Bang for buck it's a yes.

[S85FI]

Gintani stage 2 .
No meth as its illegal for street rego cars. Going through in principle approval for the blower now.
They said it is noisy. .. they haven't hid anything. Most impressed with their service.

Will give Owen a call. Cars engine bay doesn't get hot. Its got positive pressure from the front tear ducks in the bumper. They split 3 ways. Engine bay, air intakes and brake rotors.

[Lonewolf]

nice, just checked out some pics/vid and love the CF intake and sounds tits!
Nice linear power as you would expect from the blower

how much boost?
Noted their stg 2 m6 runs relatively lean - due to the meth injection or just a very efficient combustion chamber design i guess

[S85FI]

It's a neat kit, actually held one today. The m6 is the owners car of Gintani. The afr are apparently good for the high rpm boost. Looks like carbon fibre but I think its just normal glass wirh the last coats as carbon. Max boost at around 8400rpm is aeound 6.7 psi.

[RICEY]

You supply the Run Amuk Hotdogs Unleashed, I supply the labour :D

[Damo 69]

You supply the Run Amuk Hotdogs Unleashed, I supply the labour :D

Hipster Hotdogs deeluxe

[Tre-Cool]

I run a blitz blow off valve on my v2 vortech, other than the fact it rediculously noisey all the time so far so good. I have done a lot of kwys though. There is a blow off valve you can buy that you can especially order a supercharger spring, just forget the name. I just run a light weight spring so the valve is open at idle. With a quick rev it snaps shut.
you can get a supercharger spring for the 50mm tial

[S85FI]

Wiring etc doesnt really matter if your wanting to do everything via the factory ecu (you'll need to still have it there if you want the car to work at all)

The photos went over for wiring as the electric water pump is powered by one of the ecu control modules in the engine bay. They will organise the harness to be longer. Also brake booster hose needs to be longer as mounting hole slightly different spot with the new manifold.

Running stock ecu. It has more capabilities than the best aftermarket systems... apparently.

[Nugs]

Awesome, cant' wait to see this in action with the blower.

[matty12]

you can get a supercharger spring for the 50mm tial

Are that be the one, knew it was jap brand and not the usual mondo that vortech usually use.

[Tre-Cool]

so is this a centrifugal or positive displacement blower?

[S85FI]

Centrifugal. There are no positive displacement kits for m cars. If there was, I don't I would choose one. Unnecessary load on a high comp motor for daily low rpm driving.

In saying this Harrop can see the writing on the wall with holden and ford and are now developing a valley mounted positive displacement for the Aus market. Eta on release is is less 12 months but being positive its torque is around 100foot pound higher than current set ups. It goes on a test car in a couple of months in aus.

Watch this space...

They are also dropping r d for domestic market and moving to euro for aus market.

[Tre-Cool]

so are they using an existing brand blower like procharger, vortech, or god forbid.... powerdyne..

[S85FI]

As in Harrop or my set up? Mine is vortech v3 self contained oil.

[Tre-Cool]

was talking about your new one.

[S85FI]

The orange e92 M3 at racewars this year is running a Gintani set up to. It should be running about now. They started it last night. I've now seen the ESS kit on E92 and its chalk and cheese with the Gintani. The Gintani is a better factory looking fit and threaded hoses etc where ESS was barbed fittings. Also Gintani are the only ones suppling the rught gapped plus so the knock sensors still work.

It will be interesting at racewars as the ESS kit doesn't catch the M5 so the Gintani kit if it does the claimed power output should beat the 2 tonne m car.

[Greg Rust]

The notion of a supercharged V10 is making me feel a little, ahem... inadequate!!

[Nugs]

The orange e92 M3 at racewars this year is running a Gintani set up to. It should be running about now. They started it last night. I've now seen the ESS kit on E92 and its chalk and cheese with the Gintani. The Gintani is a better factory looking fit and threaded hoses etc where ESS was barbed fittings. Also Gintani are the only ones suppling the rught gapped plus so the knock sensors still work.

It will be interesting at racewars as the ESS kit doesn't catch the M5 so the Gintani kit if it does the claimed power output should beat the 2 tonne m car.
Yeah I saw the M3 with the ESS kit at Barbagallos, looks bodged together. Wasn't massively fast either.
Keen to see how the Orange one goes.

[S85FI]

Yeah I saw the M3 with the ESS kit at Barbagallos, looks bodged together. Wasn't massively fast either.
Keen to see how the Orange one goes.

If you lool closely at that ESS kit the supercharger belt doesn't llok like its running true. I wouldn't be surprised if that kit breaks belts prematurely. Also the Gintani kit has 4 small idler pulleys to keep the belt running true and to keep maximum belt circumference around the
Blower pulley.

Time will tell for reliable and power delivery.

[S85FI]

Hoping it's some what realistic around the 500mark (non US Dyno).

6 Minute mark.... 2-3 weeks counting....




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkvHRbAnI-Y

[Tre-Cool]

all that video demonstrates is they cant dyno run a car for shit or it's a shit dyno.

ramps up way to fast, or they are clearly not using a gear with a 1:1 ratio.

[S85FI]

No idea.

I dont know enough about dynos. 6 gear is 1: 1 and 7 is overdrive. They did that in 4th.

Im just surfing the web with different dyno runs. My car will be the first Gintani V10 in Australia. .. so to be honest I don't know what to expect or how it will actually drive in the end.

I've seen plenty of cars here too where very few do it 1:1 and the Racewars Dyno day will be good exposure to dynos. I wonder how many of them will be doing a 1:1 run?

[Lonewolf]

No idea.

I dont know enough about dynos. 6 gear is 1: 1 and 7 is overdrive. They did that in 4th.

Im just surfing the web with different dyno runs. My car will be the first Gintani V10 in Australia. .. so to be honest I don't know what to expect or how it will actually drive in the end.

I've seen plenty of cars here too where very few do it 1:1 and the Racewars Dyno day will be good exposure to dynos. I wonder how many of them will be doing a 1:1 run?

Hard to say with such a varied lot of cars but will get as close as possible.
Usually 4th for 5 speed cars and 5th for 6 speed cars.

Tre - possible that the roller dyno cant cope with such high wheel speed?

[Tre-Cool]

if you can't run a car at close to 1:1 ratio then you want to be able to adjust the ramp (spin up) speed so you can atleast closely resemble the accelleration on the road or your not really putting the engine under any real load.

[S85FI]

Well the transplant starts now... not sure how a 1 cubic meter box is meant to fit into the engine bay.

Hopefully its not a lemon... fingers crossed.

[DAN [GTI]]

Plenty of pictures to detail the conversion with the complementary video of start-up and post dyno / tune skids :)

[huggy_b]

*0.65 cubic metres of packing

[tinto]

Is it finished yet?

[devilsti]

Pics of the kit not loading......

[S85FI]

.95 of packaging.

I've taken picks as I've gone. So far so good. Everything fits spot on. All new plugs, manifold seals hose clamps, bolts. Most of it in factory BMW packaging.

From aftermarket side so far unpacked the Vortech blower, Ron Davies Racing Products water intercooler, turbo smart recirculation valve, bosch injectors ( no idea on flow) and an AC3 OBII software link up apparently for M programming.

Most of the parts Brands I've never heard off. Too long ago to play with cars and then it was twin point with quad carbies ;)

Tomorrow will be taking front bumper and ecm cover off. Fit intercooler and prepare for the signal loop wire soldering for the Bosch water pump.

Hopefully by saturday arvo/evening most of the hardware mounted.

Sunday loom up wires and vacuum plugs and load software and then try and get it to start and see if it drives to the dyno for tuning.

Will post up pocs as I go.

Lots of bits raw alloy and will get painted afyer it all runs, mainly for lead up time to have car ready for RW.

Starting to have post purchase doubt and hoping the product comes with the goods.

[S85FI]

Test fit up prior to bolting stuff.

http://i57.tinypic.com/21jug7c.jpg

The small package.

http://i60.tinypic.com/wtsoc0.jpg

[S85FI]

Stock. No power gain with aftermarket system unless you spend as much as 8k... and that aint happening. .... well not yet. I want t check out the valvetronic systems where I can turn the system on and off to suit and to be wired via the M drive button. That way as a daily its not loud but when I want it loud it will be at the press of a button.

[Damo 69]

due to zeljko not having a build thread

http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p530/strap69/1477359_670922052963573_4178482720347095475_n_zpsf 6b20a3b.jpg (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/strap69/media/1477359_670922052963573_4178482720347095475_n_zpsf 6b20a3b.jpg.html)

[S85FI]

Haha... Nice work Damo

I should get one going.

Well it works and goes really well.
Sorted all the PS ssues. Ended up making my own PS reservoir yesterday and now cleaning all the oil replacing two sus injector clips.

Scheduled for a dyno run Wednesday.

Will do a build thread after Racewars. Smashed so many hours into this thing to make a rhd vs lhd work. Would I do it again? Yep as now I know where all the vacume hoses go, water lines, I know the wiring and ecm circuits and how to programme the main ecm.

It still doesn't do skids ;)

Ps if anyone knows where I can get USCAR to EV 1 injector or EV14 to EV1 adaptor clips let me know. Also Norma hose clamps with a 9.3mm band at 60-80mm today let me know.

[RICEY]

Gimmee the keys!

[Damo 69]

excellent i look forward to scamming a ride at racewars

[S85FI]

You're welcome to drive it any time RICEY and thanks for thelp. Just next time improve the memory skills ;)

[200MPH]

Great work ZZ. I forsee a rolling 800 between us next Sunday! Though I just may get blown away. Yeah, original punster.

[Lonewolf]

good to see you got it in, i'm sure it will impress as i expected!
where you going to run on the dyno?

[-Luke-]

Ps if anyone knows where I can get USCAR to EV 1 injector or EV14 to EV1 adaptor clips let me know. Also Norma hose clamps with a 9.3mm band at 60-80mm today let me know.

I doubt you'll find them locally but I have used these guys in the past

http://theknockbox.com.au/connectors/injector-conectors/

If you just need EV1 clips I have a heap of spares you're welcome to.

[S85FI]

Some joint called ODIN auto parts had the clamps. Wurth ones too. German so they must be good lol.

Car is back together now. Swaped injector clips bank 1 cyl 2 and 5 to bank 2 cyl 6 and 7.
If it still detects fuel issues then I must have dud injectors. When it hunts you put a bit of pressure on the back of the clips and comes good. Ecm clears up too. Tested clips and they seem fine. In saying when I pulled it apart and mates that helped put things on made for some double repairs..... grrrrr. One of the injectors had a hose pushing on them.

Fingers crossed and its drive number fuck knows, Maybe 4.

Burnt so much time on this car. Kinda wish I got someone to do it. Imagine the bill? At least I know the car better and that I'm a shit driver.... car has more assistance for the driver than one realised.

Luke, a big thanks. I got a few trying to source so if no go by tomorrow I'll PM ya.

Fingers crosses for a drive.

Ps

200 mph if I holds together im all good I think. Its had some teething issues which are getting better. But if they continue you will eat me.

[Charger]

Awesome thing you're doing mate.

Will be a pimp car, blown V10 Beemer, killer :)

Looking forward to seeing some pics.

[-Luke-]

Skids?

[S85FI]

I didnt do anything with the car last night. Drove it to work and back.

Going to rewrite the two sets of files again tonight on the off chance I did something wrong. Getting desperate and trying everything and anything.

I'm going to give it one more go tonight. Not sure if the car does skids ;) but lights the tyres 1, 2, 3 and chirps 4th. ..

Thanks Charger. ... when its sorted it should be good. Thanks to those also that provided encouraging message's. The car has broken my sprit plenty of times. ... :(

[adrenalin]

Single handidly the problem with forced induction euros in Aus. The knowledge is very minimal compared to what is available in Europe and the states.

Fingers crossed you get it up and running.

[S85FI]

^^^ im getting better at it by the day. So such to learn. So much learned.

Injectors. ... ohms and the variable values, impedance and the cyclic rate, fuel pressure, duration on and off, nozzle arrangement flow... big is not best. Understanding how they work. Bring back K Jetronic. At least I understood that :)

Fingers crossed its runs the same in the morning. Hoping adaptive learn does its thing. If she is ok tomorrow she's on a dyno. Hoping to gain some good gains.

[S85FI]

Did dyno run.

44% increase in power from initial run on same dyno. Had to go up a gear as it was wheel spinning on the dyno. So in theory a bit more than 44%.

A bit more timing is going to get pulled back but almost there. ...

At least I knkw it wasn't my imagination. . The car is making awesome power.

1 psi boost at 3500 and ~1 psi for each 1000rpm so longevity should be there. Hopefully. 7 psi at 8000 rpm.

[DAN [GTI]]

So much for that 80HP gain you would be happy with. Awesome results!

[TJ]

So how much powah farkin?

[Damo 69]

i am going to go with 600.48hp if memory serves me correct

which is fucking awesome

[S85FI]

Lol... well 44%. The dyno I used from 3 different stock readings was a difference of almost 90 hp. So if you apply 44% to the dyno day we did and in a taller gear, its something over 600 rwhp. Had to go a taller gear due to wheel spin. Might not be good for 400m runs but 800 should be just right :)

Drives like stock. Until you out your foot down.

Still a little more tuning for 7500 to 8250 rpm..

Graph was like the dyno day. 45 degree climb up.


Edit.

I didn't expect that kind of power gain.
Next year I plan to do cams and diff gears.

If I can learn it, you can get a factory stroker kit for it for another 500cc. As in genuine BMW parts.

[S85FI]

i am going to go with 600.48hp if memory serves me correct

which is fucking awesome

Spot on. If I did it in the same Gear Gintani claimed, it would be 620-630. I had to go up one due to wheel spin so id have to say their you tube clips are correct.

[-Luke-]

Skids?

ahem

[1JZVL]

fuxk!

[S85FI]

Just got to see how long it holds together. .. ...

[Damo 69]

time 4 cams and diff gears :D

[200MPH]

Well, that went rather nicely then!

7 psi boost into unchanged motor = 44% peak power increase sounds in the ballpark, considering you've increased your absolute pressure the motor sees by around 48%. Of course I'm not taking into account power required to drive blower, but like I said, ballpark.

How much % extra fuel did it want at the top end (peak power?). That should give a reasonable indication also of extra torque at that RPM point (power). Assuming you didn't change the AFR too much that is.

Just you make sure it holds togther long enough and you don't get it hoon lawed before we go 800 side by side (OK, me following most likely) on Sunday!

[adrenalin]

it will be fine man.

Rule of thumb for beemers is keep the boost under 10 psi and she should be fine.

standard rods etc will be pretty strong to begin with due to being a high strung v10.

Keen to see how this goes with a blower on it. Something tells me that racewars is going to be hard for this thing to get power to the ground.

[Brett_J]

Dyno sheet?

[S85FI]

Dyno sheet?

Oncr all done and dusted and dyno owner happy I'll put it up.

Off to drags tonight to see what its like under load and get an idea for throttle control wheel spin.

[Greg Rust]

Great work on completing this in such a short space with a deadline looming.

[Uber XR]

Well done mate that's an awesome power gain.

Can't wait to see this run the gt

[Nugs]

Awesome news, especially after all the work to get it going.
Very keen for a ride in Wylie.

[S85FI]

Poor take offs at the drags.

Getting 2.3 seconds 60 ft.
Best time 11.86 @ 124 mph.

Gas a lot lot more top end pull. ~ 15kmh faster over 400 than before. :)

[S85FI]

All rides welcome.

[Damo 69]

keen for MPH Results!

[Uber XR]

All rides welcome.

Ill remember to bring my helmet down then

[Lonewolf]

well hate to say i was right, but i was right :)

Great results dude, will really see the gains at Racewars I think when you're in those high gears and it just keeps pulling.
Will definitely jump in for a run and take some video!

[200MPH]

Excellent! From the one pass I've managed at kwinana, trap speeds same as you. So it'll all be down to power vs aero between us at RW over the last half of 800m. My money has me down to lose...
Can't wait!

[S85FI]

Excellent! From the one pass I've managed at kwinana, trap speeds same as you. So it'll all be down to power vs aero between us at RW over the last half of 800m. My money has me down to lose...
Can't wait!

I don't think it winning or losing for me. I thinks it's the fun and excitement of the moment without the fuzz to worry about :) either way it will be fun.

[Greg Rust]

Yes it will be fun.

[Tsunamix]

I'm running a ye old stock ecotech V6 with a Raptor (rotrex based) 'charger.

First comment - all FI takes power to drive, not just SC. Whether it gets that power from an exhaust impediment or of the crank nose as a drive is sort of irrelevant.

I chose SC to stop heat trapping as the Ecotech is a very induction charge temp sensitive. I also chose a water cooled SC with a seperate pump and cooler to take alot of heat out of the compression stage. Very effective at taking the heat out of the charge.

I Chose water meth injection as I don't like impeding inlet (or exhaust for that matter) airflow.

The result - a stock 3.8 with 332000KM on the clock with 330RWHP.

The downsides - The Raptor still doesn't build decent boost until mid range, but will top 17PSI at 6000RPM. This will change as Raptor is likeley to be the first to market with an electronically controlled variable speed gearbox drive for an SC.

Pinging - Water meth helps control the ping by dropping intake charge temps, and at the same time adds octane to the fuel mix. 2 step pre ignition control right there. I'm Using an AEM kit with ramp in on injection, boost referenced. STarts injecting at +3PSI, full injection at 9PSI. Currently using a 0.63mm Injector, though I probably should move up to a 1mm injector. Maths suggests 0.8mm Is ideal for a 3.8 Capacity (10% of fuel volume) running 36lB injectors, at 88% duty cycle (custom tune).

Will eventually step up to 80lB bosch injectors for E85, but not on the stock engine. The Commodore ECU uses a drop in EPROM for tunes, so I can have one tune for E85 at something like 61% duty cycle, then another for 98 octane at 47% duty cycle.

Currently the intake charge temps are 72 degrees at idle, dropping to 54 at 5500 rpm, so the 50/50 water meth is effective at controlling temps. If I go intercooled, I will still retain the water meth injection and water cooled charger, and run water to air.

Before and after dyno values here (http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/members/tsunamix-albums-blue-bomber-picture168473-dynp-chart-001.html), relating to an impellor upgrade, with results run on a 37 Degree day. A dyno day a week ago gave me better numbers, but this is the safest comparison.

Next step for me is exhaust - still running shit 1.3/8" primaries on a 2.5 " single system, single cat, so its badly undersized. I could get as much as 50HP more from switching to a twin2 and half, others estimates - i'm not so sure - but thats a couple of weeks away.

Despite being a boganmobile, the Ecotech's are a little gem of an engine. The next engine will be built with ZZP oversize valves, ultra tough bottom end, and minimal headwork and a mild cam. Intention being to lift the rev limit by 500rpm, and avoid decreasing inlet air speeds.

[Tre-Cool]

strong 1st post. welcome to AL.

[S85FI]

I have no idea what half of his content was. Way above my head. But sure sounds like je knows whats he's doing. Tre cool brother ? :)
At the last Collie Track my intake temps were:

36 was front mount
41 was intercooler
54 manifold

Thats all I know from my set up.

[Tre-Cool]

does the M have multiple air temp sensors?

[S85FI]

Wouldn't have a clue :/

[Damo 69]

as this is technically zeljkos build thread

#makeapurchase plz

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=556580447775399

[S85FI]

But will last a shitload longer.

Bit of an update -
30, 000km on the Blower now....no signs of wear at this stage. Going for a run in Denmark next month, oil to the lab to see what 30, 000km will look like.
Only issue so far is it gets an intermittent miss on Cyl 3.
Fuel seems ok but I'm not convinced if this is causing the miss. Factory pump is delivering 97 psi but don't know if volume is running out.
Plan to do diff gears over the next couple of months - then drags to see what difference that will do to the 60ft time.

[Brett_J]

Bit of an update -
30, 000km on the Blower now....no signs of wear at this stage. Going for a run in Denmark next month, oil to the lab to see what 30, 000km will look like.
Only issue so far is it gets an intermittent miss on Cyl 3.
Fuel seems ok but I'm not convinced if this is causing the miss. Factory pump is delivering 97 psi but don't know if volume is running out.
Plan to do diff gears over the next couple of months - then drags to see what difference that will do to the 60ft time.

A workshop did a test on the stock pump of an XR6T a while ago, it delivered plenty of fuel pressure etc, but checking the return flow found it wasn't returning fuck all at full noise.
Might be a similar case with yours, under WOT all it needs is varying factors to lose that tiny bit of pressure.

[S85FI]

A workshop did a test on the stock pump of an XR6T a while ago, it delivered plenty of fuel pressure etc, but checking the return flow found it wasn't returning fuck all at full noise.
Might be a similar case with yours, under WOT all it needs is varying factors to lose that tiny bit of pressure.

I think your right but I can't test return. Not that I can't I don't know how.

Companies now make a cnc fitting to replace stock pump with Wallbro high flows.

My pump is controlled by EWK or by varring voltage for demand. What I don't understand is how this is controlled by a high amp draw pump from a ecm as I think it will burn out the ecu control module.
It has fat wires going to the pump. I need to figure out Wallbro amp draw and what my car can supply before a pump control module fries.

Need to this right as cams for the car have halfed in price and a factory stroker crank is now 2k.

[magic1]

I think your right but I can't test return. Not that I can't I don't know how.

Companies now make a cnc fitting to replace stock pump with Wallbro high flows.

My pump is controlled by EWK or by varring voltage for demand. What I don't understand is how this is controlled by a high amp draw pump from a ecm as I think it will burn out the ecu control module.
It has fat wires going to the pump. I need to figure out Wallbro amp draw and what my car can supply before a pump control module fries.

Need to this right as cams for the car have halfed in price and a factory stroker crank is now 2k.

To avoid large currents ECU control is normally done through an earth switch.

[-Luke-]

I think your right but I can't test return. Not that I can't I don't know how.

Companies now make a cnc fitting to replace stock pump with Wallbro high flows.

My pump is controlled by EWK or by varring voltage for demand. What I don't understand is how this is controlled by a high amp draw pump from a ecm as I think it will burn out the ecu control module.
It has fat wires going to the pump. I need to figure out Wallbro amp draw and what my car can supply before a pump control module fries.

Need to this right as cams for the car have halfed in price and a factory stroker crank is now 2k.

If you get the car on a dyno and are able to rejig the return so it runs into a jerry can you'll be able to judge return flow. Or there are fuel flow modules for Mainline Dynos to test exactly what your after but Im not sure anyone in Perth has one.

Assuming of course the car has a return style system?

Re the pump contol it likely a pulse width modulated feed to the pump (it the controller switches the pump on/off at varying duty cycle depending on load) Pumps don't like reduced voltade to reduce speed and it increases the current draw from the pump.

It's possible the ECU is controlling the pump directly but it's more likey the ECU is outputing a signal to a remote pump control module base on rail pressure/load/etc etc.

EDIT
http://koti.kapsi.fi/~postimies/BMW/M5%20training%20manual/04_M_Engine_Management_System.pdf

Page 23 EKP fuel pump control module is in the boot. Won't be difficult to test the control input and output to the pumps fromt there.

[S85FI]

If you get the car on a dyno and are able to rejig the return so it runs into a jerry can you'll be able to judge return flow. Or there are fuel flow modules for Mainline Dynos to test exactly what your after but Im not sure anyone in Perth has one.

Assuming of course the car has a return style system?

Re the pump contol it likely a pulse width modulated feed to the pump (it the controller switches the pump on/off at varying duty cycle depending on load) Pumps don't like reduced voltade to reduce speed and it increases the current draw from the pump.

It's possible the ECU is controlling the pump directly but it's more likey the ECU is outputing a signal to a remote pump control module base on rail pressure/load/etc etc.

EDIT
http://koti.kapsi.fi/~postimies/BMW/M5%20training%20manual/04_M_Engine_Management_System.pdf

Page 23 EKP fuel pump control module is in the boot. Won't be difficult to test the control input and output to the pumps fromt there.

This is excellent. Better than what I have found. Otherwise does confirm what I expected. ... no return for fuel which means no ability to measure. I was contemplating to tap a return system but if I'm getting 93 psi at full noise it should mean volume is there?
Or if by that document it's meant to only get 87 pump could be working over time?

Will go through that our next few days....

Another challenge I have with the car.... where is cyl 3? By crank design in can only by the left bank but all the literature shows it on theeither bank.

I'm actually going to drop the injection leads to see what code it throws because I've changed could packs,plugs and injector for what I think is cyl 3 and it still comes up with intermittent miss/which shuts down the engine for safety. .

I read 3 as the 3rd cyl on left hand side looking at the engine from the front.