WOLF VS POWER FC BRING IT :>

[RB20ZED]

ok im doing the parts shopping for me mates s14a as he has no idea. currently the car has
bosch 040
malpassi rising rate fuel reg
safc 2
fmic
full greddy td06-20g setup manifold and gate ect
3 inch zorst
gfb boost controller
gfb bov
oil catch can
hks plugs
xtreem hd ceramic clutch

its currently on 280rwhp with 12psi
definatly wants more preferably around 320 or so

the question i have to ask if what ecu to use price is big factor atm as he doesnt want to spend much more on his car....
wolf v4 second hand under 1k easy and a few are comming up
pro's ....
has inbuilt boost controller as bleed valve isnt wanted anymore
runs map sensor getting rid of the restrictive afm so another saving of atleast 300 for z32 afm on the power fc
and maybe wont need inj due to the way wolf can run inj if so thats another 600 saving....

power fc
$924 delivered from nengun atm
other wise its just inder 1200 for the de jetro version...
needs inj another 600 and also will need a new boost controller that just under 400 for that.

the power fc is alot more exxy and doesnt have any advantages over the wolf and the wolf actually comes with more....
so tell me why i shouldnt go wolf???
alot of good hp sr's have wolfs......
josh's 330rwhp
chris's one made over 300 with wolf aswell
and let alone ants datto
andrews datto aswell all huge hp sr's with wolfs.....

anyone???

[TJ]

ask josh what happened to his wolf run sr s14

this sums it up clint : harsh, yet true

if you go wolf your left with only person who can tune it. do you really want haydens engine popped?

[RB20ZED]

josh's made 330rwhp thats a huge amount for std internal s14 and he drive that hard 24/7 haydn never boots it i egg him on and really i dont think steve is that bad a tuner. no other sr engines have ever had probs with wolf........ chris's has been together for a long time...
ever noticed that josh made 330rwhp with a fair amount of boost and using std inj haydns car will most likely get inj if its ever to go over 300 pushing alot of fuel into them using a fuel reg isnt safe everyone knows that.......

[SimonR32]

dump that ****ing 4wd lift kit first :)

if ur going to get inkectors anyways just get power fc

josh car had acl pistons

[TJ]

i will personally steal the wolf out of it if you let him fit one.

FRIENDS DONT LET FRIENDS USE WOLF

[RB20ZED]

going to have to explain why in a technical fasion why a wolf is no good..... not just its no good and leave it at that

[R32-GTR]

Nothing wrong with the wolf.

[B0BB0]

getting someone to tune it might be hard, i know hyperdrive wont touch em, and ant is trying to stay away from them.

pfc, does infact have a few features over the wolf, one being the knock sensor.

i would say go the pfc, i honestly think they will end up costing the same, as the wolf will need alot more time on the dyno (say 2hr min) to get it to run as nice as a pfc(sub 1hr) would, so there you are saving $100+

however the wolf has done well, but for a near stocker the pfc is the buisness.

[Joe]

I'm sure everyone has heard the saying "An ECU is only as good as its tuner". This is 99% correct.

The other 1% refers to ECUs which, no matter how well tuned, will still have a stumble at idle, or a miss at cruise, or something of the sort. Most car owners put this down to their car being a "modified car", and they live with it...and even get used to it. A good ECU will NOT do this. The best way to choose an ECU is to drive a few cars, and see which ECU you like the best, because most of the time wont be spent in the upper RPM ranges, and you'll appreciate the driveability. All ECUs, from a crappy fuel only Wolf 2D, to a Motec M880, will make the same power...its the way they do it that justifies their price.

As for the Wolf vs PFC, a PFC with a large AFM will be more than sufficient. Dont forget that AFM equipped systems are much more flexible in their ability to compensate for engine changes, since they actually measure airflow instead of computing it. They are extremely accurate under low-speed, part-throttle operation, and therefore inherently more driveable than an equivalent MAP sensor based system.

On the other hand, the AFM can become an airflow restriction on high-horsepower engines, so it might be a better choice to go for something like the Wolf system if more power is wanted, as long as a decent tuner can be found. A suitable non AFM equipped PFC can also be fitted.

Being equipped with a knock sensor isnt necessarily an advantage either, because a decent tuner will be able to tune without it to no disadvantage.

[[RX2]]

']i will personally steal the wolf out of it if you let him fit one.

FRIENDS DONT LET FRIENDS USE WOLF

anti wolf haha :flipa:

work out - who will / can - tune the car with what ever ecu you use
before purchase

i dont know about wolfs in the piston eng scene, but in the rotor scene over east 95% of people if you asked them about a wolf they'd say "huh WTF is that"

also in may not be in mind yet but it always happens: think of the resale value of the car. :shake:

[B0BB0]

Being equipped with a knock sensor isnt necessarily an advantage either, because a decent tuner will be able to tune without it to no disadvantage.

i think its good, say u get a sh|t batch of fuel, or something goes wrong with ya car, eg split in ya fuel reg line, the knock sensor will pick it up, and it could save u a motor, i have seen this happen but went unnoticed and resulted in a poped engine.

dont forget the d-jetro is also a map sensor based ecu, and there have been some good results with these, eg monz's s15, so this could be cheaper than going the normal pfc + afm

[[RX2]]

just get a toaster with a key board plugged in the back of it & mount it on your dash

[Boza]

just buy a motec... :rolleyes:

[Denver]

did you consider going the rom route?, you don't get a spanky hand controller, but its buttloads cheaper, and will net the same results in the right hands..

new bikirom is comming will be usb programable with the right SW, and you can have 4 different maps on the fly, flat shifting, yadda yadda, the amount of stuff in the new one will be comparable to most after market ecu's..

[zeroyon]

On the other hand, the AFM can become an airflow restriction on high-horsepower engines, so it might be a better choice to go for something like the Wolf system if more power is wanted, as long as a decent tuner can be found. A suitable non AFM equipped PFC can also be fitted.

The whole afm arguement is un-founded .... there a ways to get as much hp as you want and without restriction with AFM's

[Joe]

just buy a motec... :rolleyes:

Haha Beau, you said it, not me :D

[MrMayhem]

yeah but its a trendy argument

boddo your knock warning comment is so very relevant esp in this case when hes running an external gate and a screamer

clint your reasoning for the dog is it was cheaper than the pfc... price in the ecu, modifying the intake to the turbo for non afm and for somebody to put a cas disk in and tune it Vs plug the pfc in yourself plug a z32 meter in yourself and go get dynoed. Ring up your intended tuner and get a quote on the lot

If you were serious about wanting bang for buck you'd consider tunign the std efi with a z meter

be a waste to thru a plug tip thru that greddy turbo

[[RX2]]

i still think go the toaster

[R32-GTR]

Booger you on the piss again ? Anyways i just put a power fc in and can attest to the knock sensor warning been the reason i chose that particular ecu and is one of the best features a ECU could have . As a aftermarket ECU cant take timing out if you get a bad batch of fuel or something (which does happen) its nice to see whats going in. End of rant.

[[RX2]]

Booger you on the piss again ?.

nah just at work - piss bored

[Boza]

poo

[RB20ZED]

hrm il show haydn this and see what he says rom is doable the things he is alloking at atm is price at the end of the day
prices...
rom + z afm + boost controller + tune time + inj
wolf + inj (maybe) +tune time + installation
power fc + z32 afm +inj + tune time + boost controller

its interesting at the end of the day
u can see where im going with it im not forcing wolf on him im telling him what i know and what i get from u guys and he keeps going back to the wolf
i dont think there is anything wrong with a wolf.
and for the knock sensors im not a big fan of them as i dont find them very trustworthy as std ones go haywire with any engine noise haydns is bad for this his std one with the safc is rooted does all sorts of wacky ****... does not make sence and the power fc runs of theis std one yes?????

[B0BB0]

clint, right the decent workshops round town and speak to the tuners, ie ant, lumpy, aj, and see what they say.

[Lumpy]

Guys the knock function of the power-fc is only an indicator, it is not a function that can adjust fuel/spark based on knock event. It is purely an indication of knock. It cant do anything about it.

Autronic SM4 has fully user definable knock control, so you can set the thing up to suit the application, but anyway, the debate is about Wolf Vs Power FC.

The standard style knock sensors fitted to most Nissans and some euro stuff are pretty good. The problem with them however is that like any other sensor, they suffer from age and all sundry issues like terminal corrosion. If the whole set-up was untrustworthy, then the car manafacturers would save millions by not fitting the sensors, not running the wire and not making knock control in their ecu's.

It also saves them when they produce a 'hot model' which depends on good fuel for ultimate performance, yet MrPublic, who knows best goes and fills it up on regular..........adaptive knock control and VE update STFT/LTFT have just saved his engine, and when he figures out that good fuel gives better performance, it is all sorted for him. Current generation management is very very complex and exceptionally intelligent. Knock control does not operate all of the time either - it is calibrated to operate under certain conditions, predominantly around the peak torque area when the presence or event of detonation is most likely going to occur and cause the most damage.

We use the GTR style knock sensor with our knock box. Even on an engine with very loose pistons, massive injectors and solid valve train, it is very easy to distinguish between detonation and any other noise.

Back to the ecu argument, all things being equal, any ecu can make the same power as the next. Like Ballistc says, it's how they go about doing it, how consistently they can do it, and how nice the car drives. With highly strung engines, consistency=reliability.

[RB20ZED]

thanks lumpy that was informative :>

[Lumpy]

I've killed another thread.........

[B0BB0]

the Autronic propaganda has scared everyone away, hahahah

[RB20ZED]

thanks lumpy it helps becuase what you have said has put all benifits of the power fc into the **** bin :>
wolf 1
power fc 0
lumpy himself #1
lol thanks wolf it is and il take it to u lumpy to get tuned hahahaha jks

[B0BB0]

ask glenn if he would pick a wolf over a pfc

[got boost]

how bout the starting issues so many people have had with wolf ecu's.
ive just fitted a pfc djetro on a new engine it started first spin and idled.
i had wolf ecu's before in rotors and my old r32 they never did that they were all hit n miss when starting.

[Rossco]

the cold start and idle problem that seems to be common with the Wolf, is it easily overcome? Ive heard ranging stories from ppl having to leave cars overnight with tuners, to ppl having to fork out hours worth of tuning time to get it right. Then Ive heard ppl say they have no trouble with it, just turn the key, first time, everytime.

[RB20ZED]

cold start is all a simple setting that takes time to get right leave a car with a tuner for a few days he can come in in the mornin start is see what happens and alter if needed

[Lumpy]

The thing with cold start, and cold fuelling requirments is that an engines temperature based fuel compensation isnt linear (like and old Wolf) or even 2D (like the new wolf). It's actually 3D and varies according to both load and rpm. ECU's like the power fc have this mapped in the background already as the ecu is aplication specific.

Systems like Autronic let you user define the amount of adjustment sites and define the values they are for, for both load and rpm. This is one reason it takes a while to get cold fuelling right, as you need to operate the engine over all environments several times. The latest Autronic software incorporates algorythms for extrapolating the data from a log file making interpretation of the data a little easier and a ****laod faster. The drawback of this complexity is that it makes it just as easy to get wrong as it does right. Having charge temp compensation maps from previous jobs speeds it from my perspective.

Location of the sensors is also critical - the Air temp sensor must be placed in a specific location - with most management systems the sensor must be located as close to the inlet port as possible so it can measure and react to the temp of the air as the engine consumes it, not the temp of the air that is being ingested by the cleaner or the air freshener, if even installed!!!

As for the question - what is my prefered for cold start, or anything for that matter, is a no reservations POWER FC, assuming that it and wolf are the only choices. We al know by now that Autronic is my real choice, but that wasnt the option!

As for Wolf starting issues - the mighty crankstart - it seems as though it has trouble syncing while cranking and has too much timing under crank, even when the map says otherwise. It destroys starters, and inthe case of SR20's, makes the timing chain jump a tooth!

[GTRgav]

I was never really happy with Wolf in my R, although cold start was not an issue.

My real bug bear was the fact that we spent hours trying to get it to talk to the ATTESA properly. I guess I'm also a little biased because the Wolf was also fitted when my newly built and run in engine blew itself to bits (but that's another story).

PFC D-jetro for me this time.