View Full Version : muslim extremists on 60 minutes
thrtytwo
20-03-2011, 07:58 PM
Anyone else see this ?
Basically saying Islam won't stop until democracy is killed. Australia has to become Islamic. Fucktards
I consider myself pretty neutral as far as racism goes. I don't care where your from. But fuck this Shits me. Why don't we just send individuals like that back where they came from. Worse than refugees
Discuss
Yakky Bear
20-03-2011, 08:05 PM
bombchuckers
Bomber
20-03-2011, 08:06 PM
Sand niggers go home!! LOL
duste
20-03-2011, 08:07 PM
Discuss
you're*
:P
I'm much the same as you, pretty neutral on the race/nationality front, but there are times like this where that goes out the window. We give them a good prosperous nation to live in, and they expect us to change for them?
DRKWRX
20-03-2011, 08:20 PM
Worse than refugees
Discuss
I did lol at this but yeah I agree if these people have that view they shouldn't be allowed to live here.
s1mon
20-03-2011, 09:08 PM
thrtytwo, you watch 60 minutes? I feel a little less intelligent every time I watch that shit.
You may as well go watch Al Jazeera and come back telling us the whities are trying to impose Democratic Capitalism on the rest of the world.
Brockas
20-03-2011, 09:15 PM
I think you're confusing race with religion.
Racist, bigot, not same.
RICEY
20-03-2011, 09:18 PM
Anyone that allows a religion to dictate how they live their life is a fucking idiot.
shifted
20-03-2011, 09:21 PM
Anyone that allows a religion to dictate how they live their life is a fucking idiot.
+1.
All sweet for you to believe what you want, but again, imposing it upon others and to this level of extremism is not on...
ryanr32
20-03-2011, 09:21 PM
People who come to live in country should accept our culture or gtfo
Halle Terry
20-03-2011, 09:22 PM
Anyone that allows a religion to dictate how they live their life is a fucking idiot.
Correction, anyone who allows a Deity to dictate how they live their life is a fucking idiot.
Buddhism for the win.
RICEY
20-03-2011, 09:25 PM
Correction, anyone who allows a Deity to dictate how they live their life is a fucking idiot.
Buddhism for the win.
Ill roundhouse kick you right in the deity if you correct me again.
Doesn't Buddhism mean no sexy time? Im not well educated on the topic..
RICEY
20-03-2011, 09:31 PM
I reckon I could only manage 1 and 2..
1.To refrain from taking life (non-violence towards sentient life forms), or ahimsā
2.To refrain from taking that which is not given (not committing theft)
3.To refrain from sensual (including sexual) misconduct
4.To refrain from lying (speaking truth always)
5.To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (specifically, drugs and alcohol)
HANS YOLO
20-03-2011, 09:32 PM
missed the story and channel 9's online presence is confusing!
anyone got a link to the story?
duste
20-03-2011, 09:33 PM
It does state 'sexual misconduct', so as long as you sexually conduct yourself in an acceptable manner you should be good to go? Lol.
e4666wa
20-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Sand niggers go home!! LOL
LOL the best.
mr_mike
20-03-2011, 09:43 PM
It does state 'sexual misconduct', so as long as you sexually conduct yourself in an acceptable manner you should be good to go? Lol.
so only sex in the missionary position for the purpose of recreation
DanWA
20-03-2011, 09:47 PM
definately not a race thing, the problem is the muslim religion in its entirty, some like these crack pots just get right into it and read into it too much
WAY worse then those scientology idiots.
Praise be to allah
Dont cord me bro
duste
20-03-2011, 09:55 PM
definately not a race thing, the problem is the muslim religion in its entirty, some like these crack pots just get right into it and read into it too much
WAY worse then those scientology idiots.
It's the same with every religion though?
DanWA
20-03-2011, 10:05 PM
So you know another that carries on like this? even jews are tame as fuck.
Tame muslims are becoming rare
Brockas
20-03-2011, 10:08 PM
You may as well go watch Al Jazeera and come back telling us the whities are trying to impose Democratic Capitalism on the rest of the world.
Actually Al Jazeera is some of the least biased reporting you'll see...
evil1
20-03-2011, 10:14 PM
Praise be to allah
Dont cord me bro
ROFL! @ dont cord me bro
duste
20-03-2011, 10:14 PM
So you know another that carries on like this? even jews are tame as fuck.
Tame muslims are becoming rare
It's not the entire religion that carries on like this, only "extremists". There are plenty of extremists in Christianity/Catholicism too, but their extremity is more a case of them pushing the religion on to people as if there is no other option, not threatening to kill people (and fulfilling these wishes) if they don't do so.
Jehovah's Witnesses, anyone? Same same in my books, just non-violent.
Even though I'm pretty against what they're trying to do by taking over. Looking at it objectively you have to admit that once again 60 minutes put a lovely spin on a lot of it to make them seem much much worse. Like duste said every relegion has extremist groups
RELIGION SHOULD BE BANNED rarely is there anything good to come from it... wars violence and generally dumbing society is all that is has provided to humanity through out the years... cannot wait for the day (all though its pretty much happened) when science greases up its veiny triumphant meat sword and royally fucks all forms of religion un-equivically up there bedtime story loving asses
to the point where they cant rebutt it with the standard "BUT ITS MAGIC! JEEBUS is mysterious!"
FFS if you dig fairy tales go read a book! fucking muppets!
Oh wait... LOL they are already reading a fairy tale book! ahaha
Sully
21-03-2011, 12:35 AM
cannot wait for the day (all though its pretty much happened) when science greases up its veiny triumphant meat sword and royally fucks all forms of religion un-equivically up there bedtime story loving asses
Quoted for added awesomeness.
lol seriously it's 60 minutes, this guy doesn't represent all Muslims. Just like every muppet in a vn laying a chicken wing on today tonight isn't a car enthusiast.
Brockas
21-03-2011, 01:05 AM
There are plenty of extremists in Christianity/Catholicism too, but their extremity is more a case of them pushing the religion on to people as if there is no other option, not threatening to kill people
Heard of the crusades?
siladee
21-03-2011, 01:07 AM
Heard of the crusades?
QFT!
Tocchi
21-03-2011, 01:16 AM
Heard of the crusades?
You've got two halves of coconuts and you're banging them together!
RICEY
21-03-2011, 06:30 AM
lol that was 700 years or so ago...
Brett_J
21-03-2011, 06:53 AM
It's not the entire religion that carries on like this, only "extremists". There are plenty of extremists in Christianity/Catholicism too, but their extremity is more a case of them pushing the religion on to people as if there is no other option, not threatening to kill people (and fulfilling these wishes) if they don't do so.
Jehovah's Witnesses, anyone? Same same in my books, just non-violent.
Irish catholics ?
It's not the entire religion that carries on like this, only "extremists". There are plenty of extremists in Christianity/Catholicism too, but their extremity is more a case of them pushing the religion on to people as if there is no other option, not threatening to kill people (and fulfilling these wishes) if they don't do so.
Jehovah's Witnesses, anyone? Same same in my books, just non-violent.
this guy?
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vXrr_-cf1ok" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
coFF33
21-03-2011, 07:29 AM
ROFL,
love skateboarding videos when they are getting yelled at :
heres a classic:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tbBIsMBugWo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
JNR man
21-03-2011, 08:18 AM
Bring back the 60s when all we had for each other was a spiff and a whole lotta love
Michael Richards makes his point...............
Michael Richards better known as Kramer from TVs Seinfeld does make a good point.
This was his defense speech in court after making racial comments in his comedy act. He makes some very interesting points...
Someone finally said it. How many are actually paying attention to this? There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc.
And then there are just Americans. You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction. You call me 'White boy,' 'Cracker,' 'Honkey,' 'Whitey,' 'Caveman'... and that's OK..
But when I call you, Nigger, Kike, Towel head, Sand-nigger, Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, or Chink .. You call me a racist.
You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you..... so why are your ghettos the most dangerous places to live?
You have the United Negro College Fund. You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Black History Month. You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You have Yom Hashoah. You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.
You have the NAACP. You have BET.... If we had WET (White Entertainment Television), we'd be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.
If we had White History Month, we'd be racists.
If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives, we'd be racists.
We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that ??
A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.
If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships... You know we'd be racists..
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US ....... Yet if there were 'White colleges', that would be a racist college.
In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us.. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.
I am proud... But you call me a racist.
Why is it that only whites can be racists??
We have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves!
BE PROUD TO BE WHITE!
It's not a crime YET.... but getting very close!
Pretty much getting the same here!
JNR man
21-03-2011, 09:05 AM
If there were more people willing to stand up for this we would be a stronger race, but there are soo many people who are scared they may offend someone. I say FUCK it be who you are not who people want you to be.
thrtytwo
21-03-2011, 10:23 AM
I did tile this "extremist Muslims" and did again specify in wat I wrote that I was only referring to some individuals. I realise most Muslims don't share these views. They even had a lovely young Muslim woman being interviewed and objecting to the extremist POV.
As for the racism vs religionism I know its not the same but it is a very blurry line at times.
And I take everything in Australian news and current affairs with a grain of salt, but this had enough obviously factual content for me to be able to form my own opinion.
Anyone else see this ?
Basically saying Islam won't stop until democracy is killed. Australia has to become Islamic. Fucktards
I consider myself pretty neutral as far as racism goes. I don't care where your from. But fuck this Shits me. Why don't we just send individuals like that back where they came from. Worse than refugees
Discuss
In the instance of the guy on 60 mins last night, he's as aussie as they come, born and bred here before changing his name from like Shane Stevens to whatever muslim name he has now..
Problem with democracy is they have the right to free speech even if we don't agree with it. Deporting them because of what they say would make us more the country they want than allowing them to say what they like and just ignoring it. The second they step over the line from just talking and commit a crime turf their asses out with a 'never to return' stamp on the passport.
And the muslim chick on the program was great, and imo a truer representation of the majority of immigrants in Australia.
Why do we allow these people in Australia ??
http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8225812
Slip_
21-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Word Blaaa, word.
Jihad on all you religious squeezers.
HIKARI
21-03-2011, 12:31 PM
Fit in or F**k off I'd say.
JNR man
21-03-2011, 12:39 PM
Tommy Robinson for PM
It's a cancer and it is spreading
If you weren't anti Islam before watching this you will be after!!
Fuckin Towel heads
*Hi fives my family, work colleagues, mates, footy team because we're all going to hell*
mehow2g
21-03-2011, 12:50 PM
/CSB
My told me a story about her friend going on a bus and taking a seat next to a person in a burker she sat down in a 40degree day and said "gee its really hot isnt it" women in the burker replied "You all will be wearing this soon".
csb
Jumanji
21-03-2011, 12:55 PM
so only sex in the missionary position for the purpose of recreation
you could let her go on top and say that she held you against your will?
I know its a scary thought but I acctually completely agree with BLAAA on this one.
RELIGION SHOULD BE BANNED rarely is there anything good to come from it... wars violence and generally dumbing society is all that is has provided to humanity through out the years... cannot wait for the day (all though its pretty much happened) when science greases up its veiny triumphant meat sword and royally fucks all forms of religion un-equivically up there bedtime story loving asses
to the point where they cant rebutt it with the standard "BUT ITS MAGIC! JEEBUS is mysterious!"
FFS if you dig fairy tales go read a book! fucking muppets!
probably one of the best things ive ever read on antilag
thrtytwo
21-03-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm of a very similar train of thought. I hate Christianity with a passion. It's such blatant brainwashing. but of course they're all doing it by "choice" even though its forced upon them from the moment theyre born.
It doesnt bother them that at the time Jesus' story gained momntum there were many other prophets or what have you running around telling similar bullshit stories about healing people and what not. As far as there concerned Jesus won because he was the real deal, not cos he sold himself better. I do believe the bible is based on some real people and some embelleshed events though.
But through my girlfriend and her family who are seventh day Adventist I have come to appreciate some things about church. I don't attend but I did a few times just to see things from the inside. I even went to a youth rally and it made me sick. Yet all follow commands like sheep and have dances and actions to all their god rock songs. Talking all this bullshit about how they love the lord.
Church does however offer them a community. Close knit family and friends that they will have for life. And they all help each other out. To bad this aspect cant exist outside of church.
I have a few of my girlfriends mates on Facebook and I have to restrain myself from abusing them when they post things like " I love how millions of people are spreading Jesus love without even knowing it" at Christmas time.
I could rant for hours on this topic. And often do
rant away good man, rant away
I too spent some time inside the church walls with my ex, it was shit. tell a story, drop something about giving, tell a story, drop something in about giving and on it went.
SircatmaN
21-03-2011, 02:43 PM
I've found it's not the everyday Christians, it's the born agains. The funny thing is all the born agains I know are drugfucked losers. One guy I used to work with would go on about god all day, always change the station to sunshine fm and generally be a faggot.
All he would do on his weekends would be smoke weed and shoot up. When we asked him if god was against this he said no and that god loves him and along as he believes in god he is forgiven and loved.
When I asked my dad about this (he's a hard out church goer but NEVER forces it on the rest of my family and is very reluctant to talk about it) he said the reason the bibles spreads so easily is that no matter what you have done. If you a murderer or rapist or druggy, aslong as you believe in god you are forgiven. For some of these people it is there way of not feeling guilty for things they have done.
thrtytwo
21-03-2011, 03:08 PM
Yeh a lot of crazies turn to church. I went to qld with the gf's fam and went church there. They had a special guest speaker giving her testimony.
The jist of her story was that she used to obsessed with witchcraft and black magic. And that she read harry potter repeatedly and had all the seasons of charmed on dvd. Then a friend told her that was the devils way of sucking you in. She then burned it all and turned to god.
I don't know how the reasonable Christians don't see this as utter Shit.
Another guy spoke after her about how his life used to be Shit and he was a huge drug user. A church attending friend told him it was because of the music he listened to. Apparently master copies of rock albums are given to Satan to be infested with demons before the album is distributed. Fucking tards. He burnt all his music and turned to Jesus too.
I love how one of theyre core beliefs is the second coming of Jesus. That he will return and.take the believers to heaven. But none of them think it will happen in there time. For the thousands of years they've been believeing the Shit they do, he's always been at least another 100 years away from returning. And of course forever will be. That way they can't be wrong.
Jumanji
21-03-2011, 03:16 PM
I believe that in life every action you do has a reaction positive or negative and based on those actions or "choices" we make in life you are 100% responsible for those actions, again being a positive or negative reaction....
I dont believe in "Jesus" persay and I do believe in the evolution of mankind ect, however I do believe that there is to some extent something bigger out there in the universe and that one day we will find out what that is...
My beliefs anyway.
I DO NOT believe in any way shape or form that any person has the right to push their beliefs on another as it is a very personal choice and something I think is part of the very fibre that A) makes us individuals and B) makes us human beings.
MrMayhem
21-03-2011, 03:19 PM
Can you all stop bringing reality into this thread ... its about religion
SimonR32
21-03-2011, 03:23 PM
Too all those who are bagging 60 min, try not to get it confused with Today Tonight and A Current Affair. The usually are not too bad at reporting objective stories!
Also if you watched 60 minutes last night mailbag with Peter Harvey was excellent. He had a massive dig at Australia not using Nuclear power because we are scared by things like Japan... Too right he is as well!
blaize
21-03-2011, 05:21 PM
Can't wait to hear what he has to read out next week after this story got aired.
This is a problem that is always going to be around and it more than likely spiral out of control again(riots etc)
shifted
21-03-2011, 08:26 PM
Simple solution... Genocide.
Ryan1080
21-03-2011, 09:06 PM
When I asked my dad about this (he's a hard out church goer but NEVER forces it on the rest of my family and is very reluctant to talk about it) he said the reason the bibles spreads so easily is that no matter what you have done. If you a murderer or rapist or druggy, aslong as you believe in god you are forgiven. For some of these people it is there way of not feeling guilty for things they have done.
LOL! Tell your father he's full of shit.
shifted
21-03-2011, 09:12 PM
LOL, I love delusional muppets.
thrtytwo
21-03-2011, 10:16 PM
I think your ducked if.you break one of the 10 commandments issit lah? On the other hand unbelievers would get into heaven seeing as they've done nothing wrong
Brockas
21-03-2011, 10:43 PM
I think your ducked if.you break one of the 10 commandments issit lah? On the other hand unbelievers would get into heaven seeing as they've done nothing wrong
It's called 'mortal sin'. Later part isn't correct. According to Christianity you can't get to heaven unless you accept Jesus as your saviour.
Sending good people to purgatory because there is no evidence presented that would make them believe Jesus was the son of God... makes perfect sense.
morgazmatron
22-03-2011, 12:25 AM
LOL! Tell your father he's full of shit.
tis true as long as you repent before you die its all sweet. Best comeback for christian debates. When they judge your lifestyle.
But who would want to go to heaven anyway? all the drugs, sluts and charlie sheen will be in hell.
Ryan1080
22-03-2011, 06:40 AM
tis true as long as you repent before you die its all sweet. Best comeback for christian debates. When they judge your lifestyle.
Not what I've been taught (I spent a few years at a catholic school). At best you may end up in that in-between place, whatever it is called, that sits between heaven and hell, but some sins will take you straight to hell.
Christianity , mormons, Seventh day'ers even Budhists etc Versus Muslims....Hmmmm If you do not want to join the first group (for whatever reason ) no worries, even tell them to fuck off when they knock at your door. Muslims ...if you don't wish to join their shit religion you are against them, therefore an infidel and they believe you should be killed !
Dagon
22-03-2011, 11:48 AM
Too all those who are bagging 60 min, try not to get it confused with Today Tonight and A Current Affair. The usually are not too bad at reporting objective stories!I really, really hope you're being sarcastic. Apologies if you are. I'm not good at this game.
Mad_Aussie
22-03-2011, 12:11 PM
alalalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalllalalalalalala lalllalalalalaaaah
http://i.imgur.com/NpqsL.jpg
[Jacek]
22-03-2011, 12:26 PM
They're always shooting in the sky arent they, like they've got so much to celebrate about
Slip_
22-03-2011, 12:28 PM
That's the face of liberty right thuur
Not what I've been taught (I spent a few years at a catholic school). At best you may end up in that in-between place, whatever it is called, that sits between heaven and hell, but some sins will take you straight to hell.
Perth
they are aiming for jesus
HANS YOLO
22-03-2011, 12:38 PM
Christianity , mormons, Seventh day'ers even Budhists etc Versus Muslims....Hmmmm If you do not want to join the first group (for whatever reason ) no worries, even tell them to fuck off when they knock at your door. Muslims ...if you don't wish to join their shit religion you are against them, therefore an infidel and they believe you should be killed !
that pretty much sums up my issue...ive said it on this forum before - if you try this sort of shit in their country they will burn you and your family!
coFF33
22-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Not what I've been taught (I spent a few years at a catholic school). At best you may end up in that in-between place, whatever it is called, that sits between heaven and hell, but some sins will take you straight to hell.
Perth
Very
Good
Call.
:)
DRKWRX
22-03-2011, 12:41 PM
I find it funny when Religious people say they pray for people in these Natural Disasters... If God was going to do something you think he would have stopped the Disasters before they happened and not killed heaps of innocent people.... they don't seem to like logic though.....
I find it funny when Religious people say they pray for people in these Natural Disasters... If God was going to do something you think he would have stopped the Disasters before they happened and not killed heaps of innocent people.... they don't seem to like logic though.....
The Japanese are evil though... this one's for Pearl Harbour
coFF33
22-03-2011, 12:44 PM
I find it funny when Religious people say they pray for people in these Natural Disasters... If God was going to do something you think he would have stopped the Disasters before they happened and not killed heaps of innocent people.... they don't seem to like logic though.....
He works in downsyndrome ways...
edit: i mean mysterious.
Fukushima
22-03-2011, 01:06 PM
I find it funny when Religious people say they pray for people in these Natural Disasters... If God was going to do something you think he would have stopped the Disasters before they happened and not killed heaps of innocent people.... they don't seem to like logic though.....
Raised a Catholic, I've heard their answer for this before.
http://www.ucg.org/bsc/04/sufferingjob.htm
Job's experiences can explain why righteous people may go through discouraging and traumatic times and be tempted to resent God for not obviously and quickly intervening on their behalf. Like Job, we can fail to understand that God sees far more than we see.
No matter how severe a trial is, we should never assume God isn't listening or doesn't care. He sees lessons we need to learn that are beyond our present understanding.
God works in mysterious ways... The Bible bashing answer to everything.
Id love to know why, if there is a divine plan people insist on praying.
muniom
22-03-2011, 01:25 PM
He works in downsyndrome ways...
edit: i mean mysterious.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/LZJ-_OTvsqo#t=267s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
morgazmatron
22-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Not what I've been taught (I spent a few years at a catholic school). At best you may end up in that in-between place, whatever it is called, that sits between heaven and hell, but some sins will take you straight to hell.
Yeah I got forced to go through all that Sunday school shinadigans. If I remember correctly the 2 dudes crucified with Jesus were thieves and repented before they died blah blah blah. Not that it really matters anyway haha.
Also on the natural disaster thing. An analogy I was told was. If you have a kid and he starts skateboarding, you know he is going to hurt himself so you give him the tools to minimise the hurt (pads and helmet etc). So what tools did "god" give humans to prevent and predict disasters and stuff? Science is trying to take care of most of it..... hmmmm. The whole story is as holy as swiss cheese.
alalalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalllalalalalalala lalllalalalalaaaah
http://i.imgur.com/NpqsL.jpg.
People are injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.
A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[6] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[7] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[7]
Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets and found that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 300 feet per second (90 m/s) and larger .50 caliber bullets have a terminal velocity of 500 feet per second (150 m/s).[8] A bullet traveling at only 150 feet per second (46 m/s) to 170 feet per second (52 m/s) can penetrate human skin,[9] and at 200 feet per second (60 m/s) it can penetrate the skull.[10] A bullet that does not penetrate the skull may still result in an intracranial injury.[11]
In 2005, the International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) ran education campaigns on the dangers of celebratory gunfire in Serbia and Montenegro.[12] In Serbia, the campaign slogan was "every bullet that is fired up, must come down."[13]
From Wikepedia-but plenty of sites mention this "phenomenon". Pretty obvious when you think about it. What goes up must come down ! ....Dumbass Muslims!!!
I think I read somewhere quite a few mexicans are killed in this manner also!
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