Water/Meth Injection -My Journey

[Tre-Cool]

Just for the guys who keep saying i have too much kesh..:lol:

Copy and posted from the ls1 forum, but seeing as Forced induction is FI, I figured i should keep you all updated with how i go.

So for the past few weeks, I’ve been looking into and thinking about putting a water/meth injection kit on my track/street Ute as i dont want to melt or detonate the factory L98 pistons.

The main reason behind it, is because after i put the Gilmer gears on the HH122, my temps jumped about 20 degrees Celsius. Previously just driving around the IAT would sit at about 55 degrees and then up to mid 60's after a squirt.

Now i am seeing low to mid 60's on cruise and high 80's after some WOT .

I did however go from 7-8psi to 12.5psi and thus my midrange has improved tremendously, top end power however was still the same during my last dyno session (obviously less timing for the increased boost), however my rear tires are getting close to replacement and I’m certain there was some slip happening as I had couple of burly mates jump in the tray for a couple of runs and it gained over 40rwhp from start to finish with the extra weight over the wheels.

Anyway enough of the excuses.

So like I said at the start I’d been looking at the different “kits” available from a few guys on the web, listed in no particular order:
www.coolingmist.com
www.snowperformance.com
www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com
www.alcohol-injection.com –Devil’s Own

My opinion/ dealings with the above:
Cooling Mist – Very Basic, no tank included in base price, so made it expensive. Didn’t look very professional / more like a buy this and that and put together kind a deal.

Snow Performance – Nice good looking kits, Price was a bit exxy. Controller seemed a bit complicated for what I wanted, also bottle was small. –So skipped these guys.

AIS – Tried to register on their site twice to order kits, sent email asking for freight/product queries. Got nothing, so moved on. Even though their Kit was exactly what I wanted.

Devil’s Own – Had a kit very similar to AIS, I wanted 2 kits. 1 for my ute which will have a 9 litre tank and the other with a smaller tank for my brother’s Twin Turbo VE. Once I signed up to order, it was a painless exercise with me choosing the kits and the tanks required. I also sent a note to tell them to swap out the stock nozzles with some larger ones. Chose freight selection, put in Credit card details and done.

About 2hrs later while I was a sleep I get a confirmation email saying the product has been shipped for delivery. (though i think at this stage it's purely a freight order has been registered as a job)

Simple process, just as it should be.

Now this was done last night about midnight WA time, So now I just have to wait for it to arrive from the good old US of A.

I’m actually betting it is going to get here quicker than some parts I ordered from Melbourne last week that was dispatched on the 26/3 and still had not arrived to me in Perth today because the “fast” courier company being used is well… Shit. (I can say this because I work for a freight company that has a 3 day east – west service, so I’m quite familiar with transit schedules for freight.) So the parts I wanted for the long weekend won’t be here till next week now. –My Whinge for the week.

There I go, getting side tracked again. Anyway the kit purchased from Devil’s own was the DVC-30 Stage 2 kit, which has a nice simple controller that has a turn on injection dial and then a maximum psi dial.

I.e you tell it to start injecting at 2psi and ramp up to 100% duty cycle depending on the 2nd dial, say 10psi. Once you go over the maximum it stays at 100% DC.

Link to kit here (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/dvc-30-stage-2-305.html).

Once the kit gets here i will take pics during the install and post my feedback on it and any gains on the dyno & track for all to see for both my car and my bro's TT.

If it works as well as im hoping it will, I will proably just run a water/meth injection on my drag car as apposed to having the extra weight of an intercooler on the front of the car.

[Lozzle]

Man, I thought this was gonna be one of those late-night D&M's about your horror life story with drugs.

[R3N]

where's the inj gonna be hooked up to? just before or after tb?

[Tre-Cool]

where's the inj gonna be hooked up to? just before or after tb?

Before TB. It will be in the intake pipe.

The Throttlebody is actually integrated into the intake for the blower.

http://www.vyssute.com/components/com_joomgallery/img_pictures/vy_ss_ute_1/60l_engine_16/motor_install_20091216_1588138910.jpg

The Positive Displacement blowers run a water to air intercooler.

So Radiator under the blower in the manifold base and then front mount cooler.
http://www.vyssute.com/components/com_joomgallery/img_pictures/vy_ss_ute_1/60l_engine_16/motor_install_20091209_1708989251.jpg
http://www.vyssute.com/components/com_joomgallery/img_pictures/vy_ss_ute_1/60l_engine_16/motor_install_20091206_1369103293.jpg

[Tre-Cool]

Man, I thought this was gonna be one of those late-night D&M's about your horror life story with drugs.

lol, not quite. I dont even drink/smoke.

[mitchy]

does it indicate when it's low on fuid?

would be nice if it could be run through the ecu somehow, so that it pulls timing out when low on fluid.
cause i imagine you are going to tweak the tune for the mixture? or is it just a preventative measure?

[R3N]

9L would last a fair while if its just atomising wouldnt you think?

[eScoRt20]

how does alcohol fuel react with catalytic converters? i know leaded fuels kill cats obviously, but i presume methanol and E85 would be similar?

[MrSparkle]

Got a feeling methanol hurts o2 sensors but cant confirm might kill cats as well not sure. Dont think the quantities were talking about here would be enough to damage any of it tho.

One thing i have read about is pre supercharger water injection wearing our the screws prematurely. I want to put water/meth injection on the hilux but im worried about the mixture ruining the screws in the blower. Can anyone confirm or deny this ?

Not so much the methanol (more the water/meth mixture) because we have pre injectors on the drag car that inject it into the top of the hat on start up so methanol by itself should be peachy (i want to try the blower lube we use as well) but it was something that turned up in one of my googling sessions so thought id ask the question.

[Alt_F4]

One thing i have read about is pre supercharger water injection wearing our the screws prematurely. I want to put water/meth injection on the hilux but im worried about the mixture ruining the screws in the blower. Can anyone confirm or deny this ?
Same can happen on pre-turbo compressor setups.

Usually it is a result of spray not being fine enough (sub 50 microns are the go).
Also you have to be careful you don't have flexxy-rib pipe between injection point and compressor inlet, as it will pool and big droplets will do damage... locating the spray in parallel, although a bitch to do, will ensure even and safer injection for the compressor.

One massive benefit is cooler air is denser and not significantly heated from the compression process, which effectively extends the turbo/sc compressor map to that of a larger unit.

Good luck Tre :)

[eScoRt20]

Got a feeling methanol hurts o2 sensors but cant confirm might kill cats as well not sure. Dont think the quantities were talking about here would be enough to damage any of it tho.

One thing i have read about is pre supercharger water injection wearing our the screws prematurely. I want to put water/meth injection on the hilux but im worried about the mixture ruining the screws in the blower. Can anyone confirm or deny this ?

Not so much the methanol (more the water/meth mixture) because we have pre injectors on the drag car that inject it into the top of the hat on start up so methanol by itself should be peachy (i want to try the blower lube we use as well) but it was something that turned up in one of my googling sessions so thought id ask the question.

the way i read it, the reason to add water to the mixture was to lesson cost of mixture? standard blown mechanical injection system puts fuel pre blower anyway, so straight methanol should be fine on screws?

the lambourghini is pretty economical... maybe i could start stealing from its fuel supplies.

[SEXUAL TYRANNOSAURUS]

How much water per 1L of meth??

[SEXUAL TYRANNOSAURUS]

the way i read it, the reason to add water to the mixture was to lesson cost of mixture?

I would have thought it was to keep the flash/ignition temp a tad higher. Being that Methanol is a dehydrant, it'll suck moisture from anywhere and everywhere, water makes it that little bit more freindly.

[Tre-Cool]

I'm going to play around with the mixtures, so i will try a 50/50 mix and a 70/30 meth/water mix.

Meth is primarily a octane booster and water is the knock deterrent. It offers no octane boosting what so ever.

As for the blower lobes, i've done some reading into it and supposably the later style rotors don't have a problem with it.

Besides i reakon if they suck in oil & a bit of dirt through the filter, atomised water/meth wont do it any harm, except maybe help clean them up a bit.

[joshg123]

Interesting this topic has come up, i was about to ask the question the other day.

Im setting my car up to run on E85, that has a cooler burning process.

Would there be any advantage of running water/meth injection on top of running E85 as my main fuel? From what ive read people go backwards with water/meth and C16

[DAN682]

Very cool!

Subscribed!

[Oversteer]

I run water/meth injection(and Nitromethane when I feel the need) on my turbo chev....I run a 50/50 mix, seems to work the best(not quenching the burn too much and being able to supress det), you can play around with the mix ratio to fine tune injection %(compared to your fuel load i.e. most recommend up to 10% on the total fuel load....so for every 10liters of petrol you use 1 litre of water/meth).


My system consists of a snowperformance controller(based on boost variable speed pump driver) and a 150psi surflo pump, lock-off solenoid and carefull positioned single jet(~900cc). This system may be more complex and inteligent than most but I consider it still to be crude and only just workable..
You really need to inject the water/meth with the same acuracy as you do the fuel.... to get reliable substaintial gains you need high speed injector/s and maybe also direct port injection(3/4d fuel mapping etc etc) imho.

As far as power gains go...because the water actually slows down the burn you loose power until you add timing ...then you may be able to more safely make the same power...but not alot more, bar for the full gucci direct port high speed system that would allow you to make safety only where needed and thus more power everywhere !

Use race fuel or possibly even E85 and water meth injection is totally obsolete.

[MrSparkle]

the way i read it, the reason to add water to the mixture was to lesson cost of mixture? standard blown mechanical injection system puts fuel pre blower anyway, so straight methanol should be fine on screws?



Usually its only the carby cars running the meth before the blower. Plus i think infamous_t got it right with the water not being atomised enough ive heard something about that once before.

Those fuel lines that run up to the hat on the drag cars that you see are usually there for start up (well they are on our race car anyway) because it takes a big gulp of fuel to get the buggers running. Plus they dont want it to backfire.

Heres a bit of trivia : You know those external starter units they pop on front of the blower pulley on the drag car ? When they start the car up they remove it??

If the car backfires or hydraulic locks that starter unit has enough power to snap/ bend rods. :P Its a good reason to make sure you got the shit sorted before you try to start it.

[eScoRt20]

i crew for the Extreme cars, in supercharged outlaws. the lambo and also the Effective HG ute. both of them, we manually squirt methanol into the blower on start up. then have the hat and port nozzles putting fuel in the engine. hat nozzle are in the blower hat, constantly putting fuel into the engine, even at full throttle. port nozzles only start working at 1/3 throttle or so.

[MrSparkle]

I crewed for a modified car (mackay) without any jets near the hat only on the intake just above the heads but we used to work with the outlaw car (mcgrath and when he turned up, Raven) as well, so ill have to check that i could be wrong. Im sure they said the top ones were for start up. Perhaps because all our tuning changed affected the port ones i assumed they shut off.

Update : i was wrong see this picture for futher info
http://www.team-interceptor.dk/index.htm

Might explain why our changes the ports was important in balancing cylinder temps though.


This is a bit off topic but when your tuning are you changing jets or pills? We went through a stage trying to get cylinder temps equal on idle because it should run progressive fuel pressure goverend by the pill. We used different temp plugs and different jets to get them firing within 20 degree's F of each other. In the end we were able to get the temp changes we needed by running differnt temp plugs only. Just wondering how much trouble others go to to get the car running properly.

[eScoRt20]

still off topic, but...


This is a bit off topic but when your tuning are you changing jets or pills? We went through a stage trying to get cylinder temps equal on idle because it should run progressive fuel pressure goverend by the pill. We used different temp plugs and different jets to get them firing within 20 degree's F of each other. In the end we were able to get the temp changes we needed by running differnt temp plugs only. Just wondering how much trouble others go to to get the car running properly.

new set of plugs each pass, read the burn and temp, and adjust accordingly. have had dramas with the small block in the lambo this season, so constantly changing stuff, but basicly, we get the ports burning rite, and then adjust the pill for conditions. we use jet sizer as a guide, but dont always do exactly as it says. we dont run any kind of computer or data logger. old fashioned reading the plugs and the condition of the oil.

[schnoods]

I was looking at getting a meth kit while i still had a vortech on my car due to not having a front mount IC.

Did alot of research on the Corral Mustang forums and basically 3 products came up alot as great. AIS had alot of praise, Snow performance was pretty good too, but AEM had a lot of strong recommending.


http://www.aemelectronics.com/water-methanol-injection-kits-23/


AEM kits have a bit more to them with a control module, and you'll pay more, but it does seem like there is more control. But anyways its looks like a good step in the right direction regardless which kit you go.

[Dom]

Any news on how this went/is going??

I had my car tuned this morning and the place is putting together a drag car runnning a snow performance injection kit. The car is in the early stages of the rebuild so will be a while till its ready.

It just got me curious, wouldn't mind a setup that came in at `10psi just to make it economical as a daily

[Tre-Cool]

Yeah, got some small results with my ute for now. (i havent really lent on it too hard because i need to move my knock sensors to really make sure im not seeing any knock)

Anyway below is from another forum i posted the results on and were from the private drag day.

Started out on my 18" kumho ku36's running the meth tune.

1st run:
MPH = 126.93 (204.27kph) -best mph
ET= 12.479
60" = 2.1
660 = 156.49kph

2nd run
MPH = 124.65 (200.60kph)
ET= 12.146
60" = 2.092
660 = 155.41kph

3rd run
MPH = 126.05 (202.85kph)
ET= 11.763
60" = 1.984
660 = 159.22kph

Changed to a set of old 17" MT's & loaded in no meth tune.

4th run (no meth)
MPH = 119.68 (192.6kph)
ET= 11.794
60" = 1.866
660 = 151.87kph

5th run
MPH = 119.52 (192.34kph)
ET= 12.259
60" = 2.0
660 = 150.67kph

6th run
MPH = 119.948 (191.83kph)
ET= 11.948
60" = 1.8
660 = 152.13kph

7th run
MPH = 119.84 (192.86kph)
ET= 11.829
60" = 1.885
660 = 153.40kph

Petrol Tune still, small amount of meth. (i.e about 50% less than meth tune)

8th run
MPH = 121.45 (195.45kph)
ET= 12.034
60" = 2.028
660 = 152.89kph

9th run
MPH = 124.13 (199.76kph)
ET= 11.629
60" = 1.940
660 = 157.66kph

10th run
MPH = 125.52 (202kph)
ET= 11.630
60" = 1.979
660 = 157.97kph

11th run
MPH = 123.11 (198.12kph)
ET= 11.548
60" = 1.924
660 = 159.44kph

12th run
MPH = 124.65 (200.60kph)
ET= 11.434 - best ET.
60" = 1.874
660 = 161.75kph

As you can see there is a big power gain on meth with the PD blower. I would have liked to have gone down on slicks but with rain forcasted for today i didnt want to change my brakes over if the event was cancelled but running an 11.4 on a set of bald 17 et's makes me happy.

I did some tuning of my brothers twin turbo ve today, as he only has access to 95 octane in the pilbara, i've also installed the same kit as mine.

I haven't completly finished tuning it, but results with the added water/meth mix is looking good so far.

[Dom]

have to be happy with the results :)

is this a daily? how much of thwe meth solution is used and what is the expected running costs? 4 dollars a bottle (2lt) from what i have been told.

[Tre-Cool]

my ute isnt a daily but my brothers is used for long trips etc.

the system only ever injects under boost, which it is then controlled via a progressive controller.