215i T56 HSV: manifold+cam vs turbocharge

[savage1987]

Got a mate who can't decide which way to go. I'm leaning towards cam and manifold, can be pretty quick with the right parts choice and a head shave.


Interested to hear other people's opinions on this one as I have no experience with FI on the Holden V8s.


Sam

[SSICK]

it will never be quick with a cam and some headwork.

put a cammed l98 in it.

[savage1987]

Not putting a LS series in it. That's what MY car is for :)


Got it on pretty good authority that with a carefully selected cam and a TP single plane it'll be capable* of the same sort of times as your ute, not the mph but mid 12s for sure.




*assuming he can drive

[Scaf]

You will get more bang for buck out of a turbo.

[savage1987]

Won't a turbo setup end up costing close to $10k?? Have been given the option of a kit off a 304 2nd hand for $4000 but I can't imagine that's anywhere near complete - probably just basic pipework.

[Fusion]

Agree with vsclubby, more bang for buck with forced induction, whether it be a turbo or supercharger (whipple or similar).

If keeping it N/A, either the Torque Power or Harrop manifolds are the best (just depends on your preference of company). Shaving the heads really won't up the compression enough. You'd have to deck the block, especially if planning on running a decent sized cam. Lastly the heads will needs a good port job, they don't flow well standard.

[SSICK]

to get a shop to build a 355, ur looking at 10k+. even then a ls1 will smoke it. i highly doubt a cammed and head worked 5 ltr will run 12s.

[scj91]

Depends how serious of a cam he goes,12's is asking a lot,but if it had a decent driveline combo you could be lucky,but for the money you'd spend on intake,throt,injectors,cam,all your valve gear,rockers and decent extractors..you really may as well just go forced induction instead,bolt on power is great,probably make it a bit more calm as well then a raging solid cam.
And with what fusion said about heads needing port work,i'm disagree'ing and saying that standard vn 5l heads will flow well and truely enough for what you're after,port work won't benefit enough for the price unfortunately :(

[savage1987]

to get a shop to build a 355, ur looking at 10k+. even then a ls1 will smoke it. i highly doubt a cammed and head worked 5 ltr will run 12s.
Who said anything about a shop? It's already a 215i stroker, all that would happen is a TP single plane, and a CAREFULLY chosen camshaft. Maybe a little head porting.

Doubt away, you don't give the 215i enough credit. With just a tune these cars run in the 13s. It's a different kettle of fish to the regular 304.

Depends how serious of a cam he goes,12's is asking a lot,but if it had a decent driveline combo you could be lucky,but for the money you'd spend on intake,throt,injectors,cam,all your valve gear,rockers and decent extractors..you really may as well just go forced induction instead,bolt on power is great,probably make it a bit more calm as well then a raging solid cam.
And with what fusion said about heads needing port work,i'm disagree'ing and saying that standard vn 5l heads will flow well and truely enough for what you're after,port work won't benefit enough for the price unfortunately :(
Don't need a solid cam to run 12s :lol: assuming! he can drive it. Wouldn't go near a solid ever anyway, personally.

I spoke at length about this last night with a gun 5L tuner, he has told me that these things run lazy 13s with a simple tune, and a manifold and a cam picked to suit will be capable of mid 12s without the cam being too stupid. Interestingly, he ran some numbers through EA pro and suggested that a little bit of a pocket port job will be worth ~50hp in the right combination.



What I'm wondering more than anything is about how the 2 combos stack up in the following areas


Pricing (parts only on the NA route, not hard... and most of labour done @home on turbo)
Reliability
Tuning
Bastard upkeep long term

etc


cheers
sam

[RICEY]

My 215 GTS ran a 14 flat completely stock..

[RBS13]

i would go with the cam and manifold, but im a n/a fan , stick a cam in it,if you dont want a solid cam,chuck in a crane 286, your prefered manifold (i would choose harrop sing plane), 4 barrel 1000cfm throttle body, and get a tune and should get around the 330rwhp maybe more depends on head work, and pretty sure they have the bluetop injectors?? so no need to upgrade injectors...but thats just my opinion

[ACTIV8]

manifold and cam will be alot cheaper than a turbo setup

[Drift_R32]

if its times your after lose the manual and go large stall and auto, cause thats wat will get you decent times, manual and decent power is going to make that more difficult without limiter smashing the thing with slicks off the line specially with a massive cam.

the strokers arent a bad engine..with the right cam, headwork, manifold and diff gears it should be fun.

[ACTIV8]

and id like to see a 215i with manifold/cam/1000cfm make 330+

[DanWA]

jealous brendan? :p

my bros made 260rwhp with a tune, stock.

[RICEY]

Mine was 245rwhp stock from memory

[savage1987]

My VN V6 dyno'd today at a very ... erm.... *HAPPY* 167RWHP!!!! WHAT THE FUCK.! IAT sensor must have been stapled to a header pipe.

It's a total stock VR V6 auto :lol: with exhaust and a good tune.

[Lonewolf]

kostecki dyno = +20%?

[savage1987]

My 215 GTS ran a 14 flat completely stock..
Yees. See? Different to regular 304 :)

i would go with the cam and manifold, but im a n/a fan , stick a cam in it,if you dont want a solid cam,chuck in a crane 286, your prefered manifold (i would choose harrop sing plane), 4 barrel 1000cfm throttle body, and get a tune and should get around the 330rwhp maybe more depends on head work, and pretty sure they have the bluetop injectors?? so no need to upgrade injectors...but thats just my opinion
No solids. Cam would be a carefully picked grind using engine analyser software to optimise the package for [stock everything+head porting+TP single plane] Wouldn't need to be too big, still well and truly street driveable.

if its times your after lose the manual and go large stall and auto, cause thats wat will get you decent times, manual and decent power is going to make that more difficult without limiter smashing the thing with slicks off the line specially with a massive cam.

the strokers arent a bad engine..with the right cam, headwork, manifold and diff gears it should be fun.
Manual staying. It's a daily, and even if it doesn't stay that way it'll still be driven a lot.

kostecki dyno = +20%?
:lol: seems that way! although that means the Ecotec that ran 145rwhp was completely shit!!

[DanWA]

Justin at BYE should do a nice tune for your mate when cam and shit is in...

I dunno what dyno you put your VN on but seams a little high... thats barely what my 304 with extractors/2.5" exhaust would have...

[TJ]

jealous brendan? :p

my bros made 260rwhp with a tune, stock.

Well then its not stock is it?

I reckon you should shove a 2j in and turf the 215

Probably make more power and torque with some simple mods then the v8 will.

[savage1987]

Kostecki Engine Centre today, with the WCC dyno day. I think it seems a little high too, I was expecting 110rwkw not 124.5 :p HOWEVER a lot of the other guys' cars seemed to be reading low if anything, and they were run up one after the other. I know that means nothing and figures on a dyno can be fudged a lot, but these guys have had nothing to do with the build of this motor nor will ever build an engine for me, so they've no incentive to fudge mine upward:)

Tune on the stroker will be done by the same bloke who did my V6 tune. I know we are all 'anti mail-order tunes' here but I stand by this bloke, he knows his shit!!

Have heard good things about Justin at BYE though, pretty sure I met him once too.

[DanWA]

why isnt it stock? still factory everything... doesnt have the hsv cai either...

needed a tune cause it was running like a dog due to some intake piping issue

[savage1987]

I reckon you should shove a 2j in and turf the 215

Probably make more power and torque with some simple mods then the v8 will.

HSV RAPE

[TJ]

why isnt it stock? still factory everything... doesnt have the hsv cai either...

needed a tune cause it was running like a dog due to some intake piping issue

probably needed the hsv cai

If a car is changed from its parameters from what the factory gives it then it is not stock.

[DanWA]

any excuse to put a stock 96 model v8 down hey

[TJ]

I couldnt give a fuck if it was a 1936 studebaker or a 2010 GTR, if the car is changed from how it rolls out of the factory (bar things like tyres and brake pads naturally) it is no longer stock.

Simple philosophy really, and not really prejudiced against 1996 v8's

[mitchy]

my 31 made 407rwhp stock... just a 25 and snail.

[TJ]

Id argue, but dont want to put a 1996 straight six down.

[DanWA]

So any car that goes in for a service + tune is no longer stock?

I guess theres no stock cars left.

[TJ]

Haha dont try to be pedantic with me

tune = altering of factory ecu mapping

not your ultra tune service and "tune"

[mitchy]

So any car that goes in for a service + tune is no longer stock?

I guess theres no stock cars left.

what is your definition of 'stock'?

[DanWA]

the tuner (adrenalin) said its probably cause they were never tuned for 98 which is why it was running like a bag of shit. That and 2 plugs were farked.

Anyway back on topic.

Get a big SP with 1000cfm TB and a solid 288 ;)

Don't listen to brendan, hes poured in heaps and had no return hehe :P

[DanWA]

mitchy, no boltons... stock exhaust etc...

[RICEY]

My car gained 50rwhp from tuning only, so i wouldnt consider it stock after just a retune.

[DanWA]

still alot more stock then adding exhaust/boost/cooler etc

[RICEY]

Its either stock or it isnt, theres no in between.

[TJ]

Oh so its only classified as stock because it isnt as good as something else.

makes perfect sense.

[POTTER]

my ls1 burns more oil than a deep fryer at mcdonalds
i love the smell
i have 1,000,000 horsepower on the wet road dyno
so take your 5 litre and do a fucking buuuurrrnnnoooouuuttttt!!!!!!!!

[DanWA]

Fair enough then, stock + tuneup (not power tune) so not technically stock

Sliding away from the subject now though :)

[Scaf]

Jesus, who gives a fuck?

I missed the part that it was a 215, I would be going a harrop single plane, 1000cfm throttle body and a 286, should get you around where you want to be.

And yes you can fit a single plane under the bonnet.

[savage1987]

the tuner (adrenalin) said its probably cause they were never tuned for 98 which is why it was running like a bag of shit. That and 2 plugs were farked.

Anyway back on topic.

Get a big SP with 1000cfm TB and a solid 288 ;)

Don't listen to brendan, hes poured in heaps and had no return hehe :P
You goose, the Holden V8s not only 'aren't tuned' for 98RON, their stock internals actually can't benefit from any upgrade over 95RON. You do a power tune on an internally standard 304/350 for 95, and it will have a handful of hp extra over a power tune on 98. I promise :)

AND NO SOLID CAMS :p

Sliding away from the subject now though :)
:lol: after 50 posts of random argument

I missed the part that it was a 215, I would be going a harrop single plane, 1000cfm throttle body and a 286, should get you around where you want to be.

And yes you can fit a single plane under the bonnet.
that combo you named looks like a winner, that or the dual plane, more investigation to be done here before purchase..


Some good info popping up here, cheers

[RBS13]

and id like to see a 215i with manifold/cam/1000cfm make 330+

dont see why not, know some one that made 296rwhp in a 5speed 5.0L with a 286/active twin throtts/roller rockers, so with a 355 with a harrop+1000cfm thottle body+286 should get 330rwhp

[RICEY]

You goose, the Holden V8s not only 'aren't tuned' for 98RON, their stock internals actually can't benefit from any upgrade over 95RON. You do a power tune on an internally standard 304/350 for 95, and it will have a handful of hp extra over a power tune on 98. I promise :)

AND NO SOLID CAMS :p

:lol: after 50 posts of random argument

that combo you named looks like a winner, that or the dual plane, more investigation to be done here before purchase..


Some good info popping up here, cheers

That makes no sense, with higher octane fuel ie higher resistance to detonation, you can run more timing resulting in more power. Makes no difference if the engine is internally modified or not.

[Scaf]

That makes no sense, with higher octane fuel ie higher resistance to detonation, you can run more timing resulting in more power. Makes no difference if the engine is internally modified or not.

+1

[Rantopotamus]

definately go the single plane harrop and a 1000cfm throttle.. will need to get a tiny little airfilter to get it under the bonnet - like a KNN extreme 9 inch...

for the injected commies prior to LS1's mail order tunes are good if you give all the correct info... I would speak to your tuner regarding cam - or ring crow directly, they will give you the best advice.

Cost wise your looking at over $1000 for both the throttle bosy and manifold... then you have to do the cam obviously... But if you want power i would suggest spending another $2k or so and have the heads CNC ported and if you have the coin and want to go down that path a set of roller rorckers...

STILL SHOULD GO THE SOLID THOUGH!!!

[savage1987]

That makes no sense, with higher octane fuel ie higher resistance to detonation, you can run more timing resulting in more power. Makes no difference if the engine is internally modified or not.
Because 95 outputs more engery than 98 when it burns. These are such low compression motors (8.5:1) they can run well past their ideal timing before you start seeing detonation even on 95, so you really want the fastest burn you can get for the 5L and the 215i at 8.5:1 to net the best gains from tuning.

My tuner suggests that 91 might be even better but he always tunes for 95 just because its a better quality fuel. Also says 95 makes slightly more mph than 98 at the track - it's not much but a few hp counts in stock motors.


definately go the single plane harrop and a 1000cfm throttle.. will need to get a tiny little airfilter to get it under the bonnet - like a KNN extreme 9 inch...

for the injected commies prior to LS1's mail order tunes are good if you give all the correct info... I would speak to your tuner regarding cam - or ring crow directly, they will give you the best advice.

Cost wise your looking at over $1000 for both the throttle bosy and manifold... then you have to do the cam obviously... But if you want power i would suggest spending another $2k or so and have the heads CNC ported and if you have the coin and want to go down that path a set of roller rorckers...

STILL SHOULD GO THE SOLID THOUGH!!!
Solid = fail for a regularly driven car imo.

Tuner will be helping choose the cam, he'll have the final say in it really, I will just tell him the criteria, so he will tune it just about perfect to suit.

Roller rockers and head porting will probably be done. I've had it suggested to me that with the mani+cam, a little port massaging could be worth as much as 50hp (@engine i assume). Found a $1200 TP single plane and 1000cfm for sale, might be a goer. Turbocharging seems like it'll be way too much work :)

[scj91]

Why does a solid fail? :S

[DanWA]

+1 badseed, the solid in your vk was sick!

[savage1987]

I spoke to a friend of mine who seems good for mechanical advice, he owned a solid cammed 304 before and said it was terrible. Could either set it up for cold and it behaves badly hot, or set it up for hot and it fails at cold :p

Well not exactly that but you get the point, I'd rather steer clear of solid lifter setups.

[scj91]

To be honest,if you went solid,you'd never stop smiling :p

[DanWA]

I dont think he wants to smile

My brothers will be going solid soon, least one 215i owner with balls :)

[savage1987]

To be honest,if you went solid,you'd never stop smiling :p
Further research tells me solid cams don't fail tooo badly in 5L variants.. but still not keen.

I dont think he wants to smile

My brothers will be going solid soon, least one 215i owner with balls :)

lol. Well, seems my mate isn't hard core enough for a cam swap. He likes his 1300-1500rpm cruising. And he's starting to think turbocharging is just WAY too much work.

If the car were mine, it'd have manifold/heads/cam/diff gears done already.. but it isn't. I guess I'll have to show him the way with my LS1 :) and if that won't convert him then I don't know what will.

[schnoods]

Either a Yella Terra blower, or maybe a vortech.

Cant go wrong with boost.

[savage1987]

Have you seen how much those Whipples cost for the stroker? It's like 12 grand just for the kit!! lol the car only COST $11k :p The regular 304 blower runs out of puff too quick on the stroker.

Vortech? They just fail hard imo. I don't even know why those blowers exist.

[esky]

yeah vortechs fail hard, i guess he should have stuck with cams and headwork.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q262/clintonrushton/03012010044.jpg

muppet

[VT SS]

If you got your own tuner or what ever why bother asking people on here for advice ?

[savage1987]

yeah vortechs fail hard, i guess he should have stuck with cams and headwork.

muppet



Muppet nothing, if you're going to get a side mount blower, get a fucking turbo. They are more efficient. The centrifugals from memory are the lowest efficiency supercharger apart from the roots style, your 6/71s 8/71s etc.

Posting up a huge dyno graph means nothing. The vortechs can pull numbers and times but all round better boost is available from a turbocharger. For me, I'll never go near a centrifugal blower. The theory behind them is plain dumb. Let's build a belt driven turbo that is inefficient at producing positive pressure and just makes a million joules of heat. Great idea.



If you got your own tuner or what ever why bother asking people on here for advice ?
I stated in post 1 I have very little idea when it comes to boosting these engines. I wasn't sure if they had a fatal weakness that the boost companies naturally wouldn't tell you about.

[mitchy]

i'm confused... someone who doesn't even own the car to be modified is complaining about products that they have no idea about/dont own??

atleast have half a clue before you say something fails...

[scj91]

Pro chargers fail,stupid idea.

[esky]

Procharges don't have the lag of a turbo. They can be cooled properly and make huge numbers. How is that fail?

Horses for course, but to say centifugal blowers they fail outright is plain ignorant.

Clints dyno sheet/build is a perfect example of what they can achieve. And its run good numbers at the track.

Savage since your such a fucking expert, why did you ask for advise to begin with. You've argued everything anyones has suggested anyway?

Go stick your head in the sand, do cams and whatever the fuck else you where going to do, get 300hp at the tires and run 13's. You'll impress all of us.

[TJ]

I still say 2j swap, with a safc ebc and 3 inch exhaust will make more power then the cam and manifold.

[scj91]

Procharges don't have the lag of a turbo. They can be cooled properly and make huge numbers. How is that fail?



Sarcasm :P

[savage1987]

Procharges don't have the lag of a turbo. They can be cooled properly and make huge numbers. How is that fail?

Horses for course, but to say centifugal blowers they fail outright is plain ignorant.

Clints dyno sheet/build is a perfect example of what they can achieve. And its run good numbers at the track.

Savage since your such a fucking expert, why did you ask for advise to begin with. You've argued everything anyones has suggested anyway?

Go stick your head in the sand, do cams and whatever the fuck else you where going to do, get 300hp at the tires and run 13's. You'll impress all of us.
Wow nice whinge :lol:
I am no expert, I just have a few people whose advice I trust. I asked for opinions on NA vs turbo, so when you go and suggest a centrifugal blower instead, of course I'm going to say no because I've already outlined the options. I have my opinions on that style of supercharger and that's that.

i'm confused... someone who doesn't even own the car to be modified is complaining about products that they have no idea about/dont own??

atleast have half a clue before you say something fails...
I've read enough about the centrifugal supercharging theory to know I never want to go near one. I'd count that as having a clue. I didn't just say it for fun. And of course I don't own one, why would I possibly own something I think is shit?

I still say 2j swap, with a safc ebc and 3 inch exhaust will make more power then the cam and manifold.
Looks like it won't matter anyway TJ, he wants to go manifold+cam+heads but wants a power cam that is smooth at 1300-1500rpm. I don't believe that exists (not big enough to be worth the effort anyway). Someone please correct me if you think a stroker with a 286 will behave at those sorts of rpm

Sam

[ACTIV8]

this thread fails go talk to a workshop that builds 5L's and ask them what would be the perfect combo for his needs

[Torquen]

^Marks workshop in York did a mate of mines 5L. Runs mid 12's.

[schnoods]

Vortechs go well on a near stocker.

I had a V2 T trim on my stocker 5L EF, in an auto it made 307 rwhp on 8psi with everything stock below the rocker covers, 2.5 inch exhaust, 24lb injectors. It was enough to run 13.2 @ 108mph without a stall (had 3.7 diff gears) I reckon with a 300 stall it would've cracked a 12...

Now i have Airflow research heads, Comp 270hr cam and crane 1.6 roller rockers and makes a comfortable 270 rwhp from the 5L, but it wasnt a head kicker like the blown stock motor.

Just my 2c

[RICEY]

this thread fails go talk to a workshop that builds 5L's and ask them what would be the perfect combo for his needs

Commodore Service Centre

[Drift_R32]

Commodore Service Centre

+1
dont see the point at all of going a small cam that you can cruise with, mite aswell keep the thing stock with exhuast. cause you wont hear the cam if its gonna be good for cuising at that those rpms. no decent cam is..

[DanWA]

I think they want the performance of a big cam with the cruising of a stock cam.

As dreaming as 167rwhp with a stock vn v6.

[Scaf]

If you dont have anything constructive to add dont say anything, fuck me.

So it sounds like your pretty keen on the manifold, cam option, so im just going to throw this out there.

T04Z, could pick a second hand one up pretty cheap.
Make your own manifolds, ive heard of people running the standard cast headers backwards and fabing up a crossover pipe and merge to flange.
Get a Wastegate, BOV, Rising rate fuel reg, oil lines, cooler and fab up some cooler piping + tune.
Then depending on how far you want to go, injectors and fuel pump.

You'll have something different and fun to drive.

[DanWA]

I've contributed fine thanks mate... was just commenting that he doesnt like advice even though hes asking for it.

He will ignore your turbo suggestion as he already ruled that out.

Also add to the fact adding turbo means rego is out the door or very expensive.

[Scaf]

Im not talking to you, useless comments above.

You mean Insurance, yeah that will get ya.
And i dont think he's ruled it out, just no one has given it as a straight forward option, its always looked upon as 'to hard'.

[DanWA]

moreso too expensive then too hard... how much has yours cost so far? might shed some light for him?

[Scaf]

My setup has cost well over 10, but that's with brand new everything and to a different level then what you would on a daily driven more mild setup.

There was a guy at MV with a turbo VS SS, he did all the work himself bar the tune and sorced all parts secondhand. He said it cost him a little over 2.5 grand and went hard as. I can't remember power figures or anything like that but my point is that it can be done on a budget and it isn't as expensive as everyone makes out.

All this is based on the assumption you are handy with a welder and somewhat mechanically minded.

[DanWA]

Agree 100% with you but i don't think this is the case...

[savage1987]

T04Z, could pick a second hand one up pretty cheap.
Make your own manifolds, ive heard of people running the standard cast headers backwards and fabing up a crossover pipe and merge to flange.
Get a Wastegate, BOV, Rising rate fuel reg, oil lines, cooler and fab up some cooler piping + tune.
Then depending on how far you want to go, injectors and fuel pump.

You'll have something different and fun to drive.
This I am fantastically interested in. I was going to go down this path with my own V6 before I decided to grow a pair and LS1 it





He will ignore your turbo suggestion as he already ruled that out.
this:

And i dont think he's ruled it out, just no one has given it as a straight forward option, its always looked upon as 'to hard'.





moreso too expensive then too hard..
spot on. Cost of the off the shelf kits is killer.



There was a guy at MV with a turbo VS SS, he did all the work himself bar the tune and sorced all parts secondhand. He said it cost him a little over 2.5 grand and went hard as. I can't remember power figures or anything like that but my point is that it can be done on a budget and it isn't as expensive as everyone makes out.

All this is based on the assumption you are handy with a welder and somewhat mechanically minded.
I am those things, I just don't have my own welder :( but even buying manifolds wouldn't blow budget tooooo far I'd imagine.....?

This is an option I am very interested in!! As said I have a small idea of what's involved from researching an XR6T garrett for the VN V6 a while ago, I worked out I could do the whole thing for about $2-3k if I did everything in the shed with reversed stock headers


I love doing my own work, I hate workshops for the most part and thus I have done a fair amount of (albeit fairly basic) work mainly on Commodores. I'm definitely not afraid to get stuck into modifying something in my shed, I think I inferred earlier if we went the NA route I'd be building it.

Anyway enough drivel from me, I'm interested if anyone can throw me some more info on the home grown turbo V8! Engine bay pics, turbo suggestions with longevity in mind, manifold designs/ideas, anything else you can think of!


Sam