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razor
10-09-2004, 10:51 AM
Sent this morning....


Ms Roberts,

After reading much and hearing much about the new "hoon" laws that you and your government have now implemented in the state of Western Australia, I have some questions that require clarification and some points to bring to your attention:

1) How can you possibly imagine that this law will not encourage people to "do a runner" from the police if they think that their licence plate has not been noted? The consequences of running are no worse then the consequences of stopping - in either case you will possibly have your car impounded and a severe fine issued. In addition, many people will become even more desperate to elude the police if they are on their second or subsequent "strike". You have now created a situation where ordinary citizens will feel they have nothing to lose by running from the police. Is your department willing to publish statistics of the number of high speed chases that occured BEFORE the new laws versus AFTER the new laws? And how will you attempt to justify these new laws when people are dying in these high speed chases?

2) After reading the details for the 6 cars that were confiscated as at Sunday 05/09/2004, it appears that the police are given undue discretionary powers - impounding a vehicle for going 15kph above the posted speed limit (in Canning Vale) is NOT part of the law. However, by attaching a discretionary "reckless" or "dangerous" tag to it (without requiring any sort of justification) the police seem able to simply take your car for 48hrs. In addition, you now have one "strike" against your name. I cannot see how these actions can be justified in any way. A large proportion of the community has received speeding fines for travelling 15kph over the posted limit - are all these people in danger of forfeiting their cars?

3) If your car gets impounded for 3 months, I believe that the owner of the car is liable for the fines + the impound fees? At $50 / day, that works out to around $5,000 for the 90 day period. How many people are NOT going to be able to pay that? Effectively then, they lose their car after the 2nd "offence". Now combined with the above, it's possible for citizens to have their car taken away from them for being caught speeding 15kph over the posted limit twice. This is an absolutely ridiculous situation.

4) In addition, if someone (who has a prior "offense") is caught driving your car, do they impound it for 3 months? So you lose YOUR car for 3 months? Who is liable for the impound fees + fine?

5) If you've lost your car once, do you go back to 1 strike? Or can you lose your next car again after being "busted" once? Are the strikes like demerit points? When do you get them back? Or do you have to drive for the rest of your life in fear of the police taking your vehicle away from you? Are you thus essentially banning these people from ever owning a car that they are not able to forfeit?

Taking into account the above points, it's pretty hard not to believe that this is a blatantly ridiculous law that seriously infringes upon people's civil liberties. Governments spend millions of dollars each year on "speed kills" campaigns (thereby justifying the millions more they reap in speeding fines) but I have never once heard or seen a goverment campaign encourgaing motorists to:

1) Attend driver education classes
2) Buy the best and most expensive tyres and brakes that they can afford - better tyres + brakes = MUCH shorter stopping distances. Are you aware that a retread tyre can take as much as 50% longer to stop then a normal tyre? Why is it considered lawful and acceptable to drive within the speed limit on tyres that blatantly more dangerous then radials?

Obviously the messages above aren't being posted because there is no revenue to be gained from it. I feel very sad to be living in a state where the government slowly erodes our rights and freedoms and forces us to live in fear of losing our possessions as well as our hard-earned incomes. The recent example of older people losing their homes due to their childrens drug cultivation is simply one of the many examples of your government moving far from its "labour" roots.

I will no longer support your government in this coming election or any in the foreseeable future.

Regards,
....

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

LNYMRKO
10-09-2004, 10:56 AM
Very well written. Well done mate. Some good points you put forward there. Keep us informed on the response.

TJ
10-09-2004, 11:28 AM
my letter is almost done

its a lot longer hahah

i may just paste yours off to her mate

Rickmate
10-09-2004, 12:24 PM
bloody good letter mate, those points you rose anger me more.. police discretion is the thing that makes me cringe...

What it is going to cost the members of car forums and alike, you might as well group together and put a hit on Ms Roberts.. Im sure nobody would mind, at least, i wouldnt... All bullshit aside, we seriously have to do something about this bitch...

Rick

WRCjosh
10-09-2004, 12:49 PM
police are now judge jury and executioner.. excellent letter mate, well written and intelligent.

Remix
10-09-2004, 12:51 PM
That was excellent mate. I will never vote her government again. I can't wait until a politician or a police officers child has their car taken from them and auctioned or their child does a high speed runner from the police and crashes resulting in death. Harsh as it sounds, it's what they need. Maybe then they will see the light.

slave
10-09-2004, 01:10 PM
Very well written but don't expect anything to come of it... a million people have probably sent the same thing to her (exaggeration.)

v8souproar
10-09-2004, 01:58 PM
I reckon all of us car "hoons" should start a big, if not huge union kind of organisation
Something that may give us more power and speech.
we could try and put forward suggestions like the above (like making retreads illegal 4 road use, mandatory driver training courses,etc) plus make it fairer for people like us that get targeted for using the roads.

its just another brick in the wall 4 politicians who have brainwashed 90% of the population to think that speeding is the MAIN cause of crashes (i do not totally condone speeding, as there are situations where it is unacceptable and other situations where it is ok)
but now its us hoons who keep on top of are cars, service them regulary and keep them in a safe condition who make our roads dangerous.

i think we all need to converge into one big union and try to stop all of these mindless people in control b4 it gets worse (-is that possible?!)

razor
10-09-2004, 02:29 PM
Statisically speeding *is* the main cause of accidents. But the reason for this is that Mr Plod needs to put down a "cause of accident" in his report.

Thus speeding becomes the catch-all cause for accidents. Even when a person is driving within the speed limit the officer can mark speeding as the cause (eg inappropriate speed for the conditions if its raining). So then we get bombarded with an advertising campaign of "speed kills" blah blah blah. Driver inattention, bad roads, poorly maintained vehicles, poor driving habits (following too closely etc), the low level of driver skill - all of these cause accidents that are marked down due to "speeding" at the scene.

And then the public gets brow-beaten with this statistic as well as graphics ads showing mangled corpses with the message "speed kills". Well, maybe it's a total lack of driver skill that kills. Perhaps the government should look to address *that* issue and then see how it affects road trauma statistics. Problem is there's no revenue in that. You can't fine someone for being useless behind the wheel or being too incompetent to control their vehicle in any sort of emergency.

But it's also important to see the role of the media in all of this - how many "hoons are destroying society" stories have we seen in the last year? Do you honestly think it's worse now then it was 20 years ago? Of course not - the only difference is the amount that it is hyped and pushed in front of people on the news. Instead of import turbos, people used to use VH Commodores and XE Falcons to do burnouts, "terrorise" the neighbourhood and occasionally kill themselves.

/rant

k0nz
10-09-2004, 02:48 PM
As I said in the original thread..

does anyone have the official documentation regarding the law?

razor
10-09-2004, 02:55 PM
http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/parliament/bills.nsf/A1E7E98B96551D3748256E4D00241B18/$File/Bill+273-2.pdf

Section 12, page 6 is where the confiscation etc stuff starts.

Answers to questions:

1) Person driving the car is liable for the costs in court.
2) 1st offense (48 hr impounding) is wiped clean after 3 yrs.
3) 2nd offence (3 month impounding) lasts for 5 yrs on your record.
4) The courts must decide that you forfeit your vehicle entirely. But, if they do, you have no recourse - you lose all rights to your car. Also, if you let someone with two offences drive your car, you may still lose it (you allowed them to drive it).

And, last but not least, if the govt confiscates and sells your car, THEY get to keep the money.

MrMayhem
12-09-2004, 03:28 PM
Im eager for the response

SmItLeR
12-09-2004, 04:11 PM
Statisically speeding *is* the main cause of accidents.
speeding isnt the main cause of accidents... like most accidents - its the sudden stop that kills people :P :P :P

lol.. sorry couldnt resist

magic1
13-09-2004, 07:23 AM
Brad.

Speed is a MAJOR factor in every motor accident.

If the car aint moving what the fuck can it hit.

LOL

Cops are Tops

confuzion
13-09-2004, 09:28 PM
great letter mate, reading that it really shows what a rediculous law this government has passed. Not jappy han

sethor
17-09-2004, 11:35 PM
http://www.roadsense.com.au/
according to this site only 2% of road deaths occur over the speed limit.

RGVFAST
18-09-2004, 09:52 AM
haha speed is never the killerr
its the stop at the end
________
vaporizer review (http://vaporizer.org/reviews)

Fryman
21-09-2004, 01:33 AM
well writen. top show

Abbz
21-09-2004, 11:11 AM
very well done

i wouldnt mind sending her an email as well. as most of you know, i work in 'criminal law' and its most of these people getting picked on that we deal with and defend. lots of them get off because of no evidence, but theyre are hit with a huge lawyers bill for nothing !

does this mean that when i speed in my bunky hyundai excel im going to get my car confiscated because i am a hoon? Or do i have to drive an "import looking" or "powered" car because thats pathetic.

What about the old buzzards i have seen with a love of cars, will they confiscate a 60+ year old car if he is a few kms over the limit or is there an age bracket as well.

i think its all frikken pathetic.

make the fines bigger or something, but they cant take ur car away and make you pay for it, what if its a cop that hates you and they are out to get you? I've worked with Royal Commission...there is loads of corrupt cops out there on major ego trips !!

k0nz
21-09-2004, 11:14 AM
Abbz - I didn't know you did..
Do you know where I could find case studies or dictation of the court proceedings of some of these court cases..?

Abbz
21-09-2004, 01:37 PM
Yeah i do..

Of which court cases do you mean? car ones..?

and do you mean the transcript (ie, what was said in court)

Or the Cases....umm a way to put that would be if someone took it to court and they won, it becomes a case. ie, you can stand up and say "in such and such case the judge says.."

k0nz
21-09-2004, 02:58 PM
yeah transcript was the word I was looknig for.. of people who've won against the Police on such charges as excessive noise and anti hoon charges.
Would be an interesting read..

suburban
21-09-2004, 04:47 PM
very well written, good to see one of us making a proper stand instead of just bitching to eachother

HotAe92
21-09-2004, 04:50 PM
I reckon all of us car "hoons" should start a big, if not huge union kind of organisation
Something that may give us more power and speech.
we could try and put forward suggestions like the above (like making retreads illegal 4 road use, mandatory driver training courses,etc) plus make it fairer for people like us that get targeted for using the roads.


but now its us hoons who keep on top of are cars, service them regulary and keep them in a safe condition who make our roads dangerous.


I agree, being a p plater, we are constantly blamed for the road fatigues that continually occur. True. But if only we were educated a little more, maybe a walk through Shenton Park Rehab, then maybe these accidents will be minimal. Ive got mates who cant drive for shit, and who constantly risk other users of the roads through stupidity. I believe that these 'hoon laws' should be targeted at people like that, instead of us 'hoons' who look after our prized possessions and who are constantly taunted by police.

But now their trying to bring in the idea that if ur a witness to a burnout or drag race, u are able to 'dob' in the offender and have their car seized. What aload of shit. I this comes into play (and i hope it wont) then where will we go, we'll have every tom, dick and harry after us.

Sully
21-09-2004, 06:03 PM
i'm still wondering what happened to "innocent until proven guilty"